Have you ever stood at the crossroads of change, your identity shimmering like a mirage on the horizon? Ashleigh Renard joins us in this heartfelt journey through the ebbs and flows of personal evolution. Together, we peel back the layers of our lives, sharing stories of love and faith, the transformative power of self-reflection, and the bravery it takes to be true to oneself. We delve into Ashleigh's memoirist journey—how she hung up her ice skates, graced the writer's desk, and saw her life leap from page to screen.
If you've ever felt tangled in the expectations of gender roles or puzzled over the dynamics of monogamous relationships, this conversation is for you. We unravel the misconceptions about women's desires, the impact of patriarchy on sexual relationships, and the importance of assertiveness in intimacy. Our dialogue dances through the nuances of modern dating, from sifting through dating apps to the effects of surviving breast cancer on personal connections. We explore how success and vulnerability intertwine, shaping our relationships and leading us to discover what truly resonates in partnerships.
As we wrap up this tapestry of personal anecdotes and shared experiences, we reflect on the spirit of triumph and the power of setting intentions for a joyous year ahead. We discuss the beauty in acknowledging past growth, embracing 'new mistakes only,' and even the fulfillment that can come from intimacy. Join us as we celebrate our personal triumphs, from nurturing parenting to transforming our living spaces, and set the stage for a year of celebration, connectivity, and continued self-discovery.
Have you ever stood at the crossroads of change, your identity shimmering like a mirage on the horizon? Ashleigh Renard joins us in this heartfelt journey through the ebbs and flows of personal evolution. Together, we peel back the layers of our lives, sharing stories of love and faith, the transformative power of self-reflection, and the bravery it takes to be true to oneself. We delve into Ashleigh's memoirist journey—how she hung up her ice skates, graced the writer's desk, and saw her life leap from page to screen.
If you've ever felt tangled in the expectations of gender roles or puzzled over the dynamics of monogamous relationships, this conversation is for you. We unravel the misconceptions about women's desires, the impact of patriarchy on sexual relationships, and the importance of assertiveness in intimacy. Our dialogue dances through the nuances of modern dating, from sifting through dating apps to the effects of surviving breast cancer on personal connections. We explore how success and vulnerability intertwine, shaping our relationships and leading us to discover what truly resonates in partnerships.
As we wrap up this tapestry of personal anecdotes and shared experiences, we reflect on the spirit of triumph and the power of setting intentions for a joyous year ahead. We discuss the beauty in acknowledging past growth, embracing 'new mistakes only,' and even the fulfillment that can come from intimacy. Join us as we celebrate our personal triumphs, from nurturing parenting to transforming our living spaces, and set the stage for a year of celebration, connectivity, and continued self-discovery.
Hi there, welcome to Peace of Work the podcast. I'm Danielle Tanton. I'm a nurse, author, coach and survivor. I love inspiring people to live their best life, reach for those big dreams and find joy even in the pain. As I wrote my memoir over so many years, trying to make sense of a story where I was way too often the bad guy instead of the hero, I came to understand that we are all a piece of work, but we're also a work in progress, and even in our messiness we are a work of art too. All at the very same time, in fact, we are all beautifully unique pieces of one masterpiece waves in the same ocean. This podcast will explore the stories and struggles that make us human, the miracles that surround us and all the ways we work to make sense of it all. Welcome to Peace of Work the podcast.
Speaker 2:Okay. Well, I'm so excited to talk to you, ashley. I'm not feeling great today. I woke up with kind of a weird upset stomach, but so I'm at home in my blurred background home office.
Speaker 3:Hopefully this conversation sets you on the path to healing, Danielle. Hopefully it's like unsettled and then clarity comes in and all clear.
Speaker 2:Well, I love your energy and you're so much about you and I'm in your presence a lot, even though we haven't talked live in a while. This is the second time you're on my podcast and, believe it or not, I only have about 30 episodes and this is the second one you're on, so that's a pretty high percentage Amazing. Thank you for having me back. I've been watching your journey and we'll give a little intro to everything you've been doing, but I've seen you evolve and I feel like you and I are just on such a similar path similar but different and that's why I think that's one of the reasons I feel so connected with you and so interested in what you're doing.
Speaker 3:And I think, danielle, it's because it's a path that a lot of women are on right now, a lot of humans collectively really assessing wait a minute, and for a lot of us this happened before pandemic, but it happened in a collective way during pandemic. People are pausing and saying wait a minute, maybe I don't have to do things the way I've always done them. Maybe, just because this is what's expected of me, I can take a pause and ask myself if I'm really going to do that or if I'm maybe going to start doing the opposite in some situations. And for a lot of us, our worldview is really based on doing things that are expected. I mean, child psychologists will tell you about this.
Speaker 3:Everybody talks about the things that we experienced from birth to age seven really imprint on us how the world works and how we stay safe and how we keep the people around us in a pleasant mood, how we keep our caregivers, how do we push their buttons or how do we stay out of their way, or how do we get good attention, how do we get bad attention?
Speaker 3:What happens or what are we told about ourselves? When we ask for too much, then what are the ways that we start taking a look at our patterns and really start discerning what is helping me and what is helping me feel joyous, free, plugged in, connected, loving towards the people in my family, really overflowing with generosity to friends, what is making me feel filled up and what behaviors am I doing on my own accord every single day that are really driving me into the ground and are pushing a wedge between me and the people closest to me? It's really this, reckoning, this coming to terms with how much of our life can we do on autopilot and are we willing to start taking a look, one by one, almost like the Conmarie right?
Speaker 2:I love that I did that. I did that with my clothes. Why not do it here?
Speaker 3:I know right, but just to really take a look at every limiting belief or every little thought that comes up, every automatic thing that your brain or your body does, and you say, wait a minute, do I want to keep doing that or do I want to pause long enough to say, ooh, is there a better way that I could do this? You and I have both been through those things with love and illness and physical and emotional well-being and figuring out okay, how can I really? What does a life of integrity feel like? It feels like when I'm being my true self. And when I'm being my true self, how much more can I offer others and how many feathers am I willing to ruffle to be true to me, even when people around me may not understand?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's sort of been the story of my life. And when you publish a memoir, especially one like either of ours, where they're so personal and very it's just personal about our love life and our faith life and our inner life.
Speaker 3:Revealing. I would say really right, right, you open, we both open right up and say not everybody talks about that.
Speaker 2:Especially, you know some of the circles that we may run in. I mean, you know I have a lot a very conservative Christian circle, and then I you mentioned world view earlier I have almost two world views competing for my.
Speaker 3:You know my heart and Because there is so new, so much nuance, yeah, there's so much nuance and and Danielle, to have that Space for that bit of curiosity right to say like, wait a minute, I feel pulled in this direction. I pulled this endure in this direction. And what can I learn from the tension? What can I learn from actually not being able to just slap a label on my own beliefs or on what I think is right or wrong right now or or, like you know we've been, we've been really asked to take a side on so many things and I think that now the pendulum is swinging back a little bit in some conversations to say, wait a minute, you know what? It's okay to be on the fence sometimes.
Speaker 3:You know we went through the whole silence as violence and I don't disagree that that there is a lot of, a lot of people are just staying safe in their privilege and they're they're not ruffling feathers and they're not, you know, taking it in there in their bottom line and things like that. But you know what? I think that those people are always gonna be silent. I think that there are those of us who need to speak up in the world and who are writers and memoirs, but we also need to know when I don't know if I have a public opinion on every single thing.
Speaker 2:No, yeah.
Speaker 3:I don't have. I don't have until I can say something meaningfully and with a touch of wit and a universal lesson, so that I'm not just bitching about something or moaning about my own thing or whatever. I I keep, I keep my processing inside and I keep it for, like one-to-one conversations with friends and I talk to my kids about it a lot, you know, and we toss ideas around between us to try to understand. You know when each one of us is coming from with our understanding of a situation so agree, okay.
Speaker 2:So we talked already a lot, we kind of delved right in and we didn't really introduce you or talk about. Talk about who you are and what you do and why you're so interesting to me. So this is my friend, ashley Renard. She is a memoirist, as as we mentioned, and I read her book last year and loved it, but she's also created a community and it's it sort of has evolved, and so I'd like you to kind of give me, give us you. I want, I want you to introduce yourself as who you, who you are and who you, who you want to be in the world. Yeah, and it changes every day. Right, it changes every day.
Speaker 3:It's been a big, big year for me as far as change change Totally so. Okay, ashley Renard, canadian prairie girl, raised in the rink, I coached and choreographed synchronized skating for years, told my stories that way, but always wanted to be a writer than 2019 make a time. Right before pandemic, I retired from my life on the ice and I Focused on my writing full-time and things moved really quickly, and this was my experience, I think, danielle. I think I've done it a lot of times, but this is my recent experience in like full-on belief Manifestation, jumping timelines, whatever you want to call it like really changing the whole reality around myself, and I've done that so many times in the last five years.
Speaker 3:Since then, I Wrote swing, which is a Funny, sexy book about how, as a perfectionist mom, I took doing it all to the next level as the world's worst attempted swinger, and it was a well-received and commercially successful book that people have loved and it's been optioned for film and that has brought up so many more issues for me as far as being visible and and that is the catalyst for my next memoir because the the reality Trick that's played on yourself when you're asking yourself wait a minute, like who do I really want to be cast as me, and Do I do? Do I really want to be known for this thing? And has that ship already sailed? And and and? Is it just a thing I made? It you know is? Is swing just a thing I made? That's like a fruit that's fallen off my branches years ago, or is it me, like all of these things that come with? I can really Much of what you're saying. Come with success. Come with goals still not achieved. Come with potential. Come with Can I just move on to something else? Come with what is? What is the energetic loyalty I owe to this creative project? Or how much freedom do I give it?
Speaker 3:I actually did this ritual a couple months ago, danielle, and your eyes make it big, my kids eyes. When I told them this, they were Like you, what? I burnt an entire copy of swing. I ripped the cover off and then I ripped page by page by page and just tossed it into a fire. And it was so Amazing because I got to see the first few words on every other page and then I started Few.
Speaker 3:Well, I just like oh, that's the place in the book. It was sort of this Pacing through the book. You know I've read it, I've reread it, I've edited it, I narrated the audiobook twice but I'm sure it like that right, it was this really physical sort of like, almost a walking through it, because it was like a rhythmic thing and what I did was I treated it like a, like a child that I was launching into the world. So like I'm an empty nester now, like I've done what I need to free and now you can go and be what you want to be. I love that.
Speaker 3:I think that's so because I still had so much attachment and aversion to like. I hope it's this, I hope it's not that you know like it's we share such a revealing way. We, we, yeah, we really have no control over what people do with our story and that's infuriating. And it's a constant act of surrender and a constant act of release. Because that book was about rehabbing my shabby marriage and how I figured so many things out about my perfectionism and shifted my marriage and my parenting, and all of those things are true. And also we came up against another marriage renovation that was needed a couple years ago, when we we have three boys they're 16, 14 and 10 now but the summer that our oldest turned 15 and he got taller than me and he entered high school. I felt the incredible shift in our Dynamic as far as a quality in our family. It was like my spot on the family totem pole shifted and all of a sudden, teenage kid Danielle the kid who just got hair on his balls is like above me.
Speaker 2:Wow in rank. So tell us just yeah, you're. You were married to a.
Speaker 3:Greek man, a Greek Orthodox man, who was a very nice guy and a very hands-on dad, and For anybody who's married to a nice guy, you know that that is a double-edged fucking sword, because sometimes they just hide behind that nice guy demeanor and they never take a stand for anything, they never stick their neck out, they just do enough to be considered the nice guy. And Collectively, we have seen a lot of times where especially the nice white man gets in trouble for, yeah, doing nothing right or allowing something to happen. Because I mean, studies have shown for a very long time that if someone is to stand up and hold someone else accountable or to stand up and keep Someone else safe, it's usually a woman. It's usually a woman's a female stranger who will do that for other people. Men have really been able to just like, not say anything, keep their proximity to power, you know what, by not disagreeing with this guy.
Speaker 3:So I should have just be hold Daniel that in my own house, like how my husband would want to like stay bros with a 15 year old, so like wouldn't back me up and it was all. Is this culmination of years of not being backed up on the kids chores, not really having a partner and like, okay, wait a minute. These things are important to me with the kids. This is why I think we should get off screens and, you know, get into the bed with some books or something a little earlier. All of these things that were poo pooed and kind of like, oh, I don't know if it's that important. All of a sudden you know this.
Speaker 3:This teenager has ideas that are like, oh, okay and giving Credence, and I'm like wait a minute, I Thought you sort of ignored kind of anything you didn't understand. But it seems like you know, when you're motivated, when our teenage son wants you to understand something, or when a male stranger wants you to understand something, your brain works really quickly. And when I, as your wife of 21 years, and try to explain something to you, it's very foggy. So maybe, maybe it's not your comprehension, maybe it's the way that you're able to treat me and see me as only a fraction of a full human when I'm a woman living in your house. It's so interesting because it's so.
Speaker 2:This, this whole subject, is something so different than even any of the subjects that you explored In your in your book, and that's the whole point is like your book, like you said earlier, it was one fast. It was like about one part of your life. It was about you know one theme and Then you have a whole life and I what I saw as a, as as kind of a someone sitting back inside your community a little bit. I couldn't believe the judgment of some people like I guess there's always that there's always naysayers, especially when you are being visible and you're living out loud. I Couldn't believe the judgment of people over you getting a divorce after. After trying to talk to people about about having monogamous Relationships. I'm like, so she, because we believe in her monogamous, because Ashley believed in not a monogamous Relationships and still does, probably. I mean, like I do.
Speaker 2:I do using a divorce for her own personal marriage because it's the best way. You're like, you're gonna you're gonna say oh my gosh, everything you taught me.
Speaker 1:How can I?
Speaker 2:even believe what you taught me. I was like, I was so angry.
Speaker 3:It was so it was so funny. It was so funny, danielle, because I mean, it was hard from an identity and I like, wait a minute, what do I know about communication and what can I trust that I know about Relationships? It was hard from like a personal standpoint of like, oh god, I, I can't make my marriage work. And Should I now be saying anything about marriage? Because, well, for, for a little bit I was like I don't want to say anything. If I talk about marriage, I'm just gonna tell everybody, like get divorced, it's too hard, just fucking. Never mind. Like let's everybody just Maybe our kids will figure out a new way to do marriage, but like we don't know if this isn't it, I but I just kept it. I talked to friends and I journaled a much therapy and I deep burned with my ex because we kept things Really private for months, for months.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So then when you make the announcement, everyone's like what the heck? What I?
Speaker 3:thought you guys were fine, I thought you guys were great right and the majority of people were really great. There were some people who were like the same men. This is the thing, danielle. It's not hard to figure out the men who'd had a problem with this. The men who had a problem with me getting divorced and not saying in my marriage were the same men who would write me DMs saying, oh my God, if only my wife was more like you, my sex life would be and my life would be amazing. Okay, they think there's a magic pill Like oh, if my wife just liked sex, like Ashley likes sex, my life would be great. No, if you would actually just listen to your wife, she would be able to tell you what she likes. You would be able to say these are the things that I like, and she would be able to say, yeah, this is what turns me off about that. And you would be able to have enough creativity and enough worldview and enough of an understanding that, as men and women, you're not against each other.
Speaker 3:Because the people who were in my audience and who really were getting what I was saying for years about men and women let's just look at each other as, like, unique and incredible and potentially annoying. Individual means unique and incredible and potentially annoying individual. Let's figure out the unique ways that we are. All of those things Not.
Speaker 3:But patriarchy sets us up to say men and women want different things in life. We want different things in life, danielle, did you know? Women want sex, women don't want sex. Great, what do women want? Not even true. It turns out women just need a man to provide for them.
Speaker 3:That's actually when we look at patriarchy. We're like men want sex and women need a man. So it's like what? Well, like it all starts to break down really fast. You're like wait, what are we talking about? But then men and women get married and instead of saying, hey, I would like this to be better for both of us, can we talk Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions, assumptions. Talk to your buddies, talk to your friends assumptions, assumptions. And then we have this whole paradigm where there are millions of men who believe, yeah, women don't really like sex, but if your wife's nice enough or likes you enough, they'll do it with you. We have totally forgotten that sex is a fun thing for both, for all genders, for almost anybody who has a healthy body, and asexual individuals have a different place in this right, but for most people sex is great. And then for most people, there are weird things that happen to us Hangups and things that get in the way we get hangups right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that if you have a great partner, wonderful. You actually have a workshopping partner to work through your own weird hangups and even take weird fantasies and go. This is weird, but what is it about it that turns me on? Oh, it's like this sort of dynamic and looking more at what is either the power play, that's kind of a turn on, or the power play that's kind of a turn off, like man, if they're incompetent in the kitchen or something like that sort of incompetent child sort of energy is like the opposite of sexy, right, like I recently did a poll, danielle and 95% of my audience polled said that they wanted their partner to be more assertive in the bedroom. Okay, and I don't think it means that we all just want to be totally submissive or like we want to be like tied up slaves or something. I think what it means and this is men and women across the board 95% of people want their partner to be more dominant. This is what we want. We want our partner to be confident. We want our partner to look and seem sexy, whether that's like them taking control or texting you and being like hey, I'm going to be home in 20 minutes. I want you to be waiting for me in this place. I want you to be wearing this, I want you right, whatever it is, and, like your listeners or my audience members, when I throw out these different ideas, one of them will light up for them and they'll be like, oh, that's the thing, right. And then they'll talk with their partner and they'll be like that's the thing for you, this is the thing for me. Oh, isn't that interesting?
Speaker 3:And to really look at this, danielle, any sort of needs, whether they're emotional needs, sexual needs, whatever they are, I don't think human needs are ever in opposition with each other. So, you know, you and I could be friends and have very specific needs for what we need on a Thursday afternoon and we could hang out together all afternoon and we could both get our needs met. It wouldn't take very much patience or creativity to figure out. What is it about that sushi restaurant you like? Oh, you like that. It's by the water. You know what? There's this cafe over here. It doesn't take very much creativity because we assume, oh, we're friends, we're going to have a great afternoon, we can figure out lots of ways to make this fun.
Speaker 3:But men and women going into the bedroom together thinking, oh yeah, we're already on different teams here for different things that we want out of this. We have to tolerate each other to come together to do this, get through it Right. To get through it, because if we're not doing it we're going to feel really weird about it. But even when we do it it feels a little weird because, like there's parts of it that we know things that are being unsaid or things that, like we think maybe the other person wants, but they're not asking and we're not going to break Danielle, the amount of uncertainty like literally I have more clarity with my Instacart person every time I order groceries than most people have when they're having sex with their partner.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Because it's like I think the relationship can get in the way too. You know, if you, if you're not seeing eye to eye, if you're, if you're in a, if you're having a lot of people, maybe this isn't even the case for you, because but but if you ask me, ask me, well, I was going to say you know, I'm also going through a divorce. To me, when you're, when I, when I'm having issues in our relationship, it affects the sex, because it's like almost like you close yourself off and you don't even want to let yourself enjoy it, and so you have to because I can't.
Speaker 3:I I cannot be intimate with someone unless I feel physically safe and getting along and happy with them. Like I can't have sex if we're fighting.
Speaker 2:I can't even have makeup sex because, honestly, my nervous system has to like actually I can, unfortunately, and I can go through the motions and they can do this. We're going through the motions.
Speaker 3:Well, okay, but here's the thing let's pause this. Let's pause this and back it up. Let's pause this and back it up. You can have makeup sex, unfortunately, okay. Okay, either you're going to stop having makeup sex or you're going to be grateful for the fact that you can have it, right, and you're going to keep having it and you're going to say this is something that I continue doing because I want the connection after or something. There's something about it that doesn't feel great, but there is a part of me that continues to do it. Yeah, so then you can say to yourself okay, if this is something I keep doing because, I don't know, maybe it really feels like you need to repair and like having that physical connection after. To not do it would feel unsafe, you know. So then, you know what? Change your mindset and say, okay, I'm going to make it the best fucking orgasm, or I'm going to be wild, or I'm going to be really bratty and demanding. Whatever Right, like, make it, make it great.
Speaker 2:That's the part I couldn't do. I was unable to do it. It was for me, it was going through the motions because of the where our relationship was. Yeah, and it was obvious. You know, I tried, but it was.
Speaker 3:But thinking about that going forward in other relationships. Just think about how you want to approach breakup sex. Is it going to be a yes? No, it's going to be, but it's going to be like have it be an intentional thing? Yeah, like I don't like how I did breakup sex before. So if we're going to have breakup sex partner, we got to talk about this. And that is the great thing about dating in your 40s, people want to have honest conversations. Before every first date I go on, I have a phone conversation. That's usually. I've shared this in my Instagram stories like one to three hours. The guy I'm dating right now we spoke for eight hours, the first two hours, the first two hours the night that we were talking.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we matched on a Thursday, then that Friday we talked for eight hours, so talk about the.
Speaker 2:How are you, do you do the apps Like? I mean, I don't even seeing this guy now.
Speaker 3:So but this guy we've only been dating for a few weeks. We met in December the guy I'm dating right now. So the way I'm dating is using Bumble, one app, one profile, going on little spurts where I swipe for a bit every day Like it's my job. I talk to a bunch of guys at once, sometimes line up a few phone conversations If I really like talking to them. Then a date which leads to some really fun first dates.
Speaker 2:It's led to a couple Because you know them pretty well by the time you see them, I wanted to kiss it for a site's date.
Speaker 3:Wow, I mean, that was kind of right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I mean, I've had some pretty intimate conversations. So I only did. I did a different app, I did hinge and I did it for about 48 hours. So that's it. What scared you off so quickly? I didn't, nothing turned me off, I just was overwhelmed by. I had like 50 different matches and I was like, okay, this is enough, I don't need any, I don't need to continue staying active, and I met a few people that I liked and I'm only one person. I mean, I can only handle so much the amount of attention that I have gotten as a 49 year old woman with no nipples, which that's the whole conversation. So I was like so you know that I went through breast cancer and I had a double mastectomy and I had, I had no nipples. I now have tattooed nipples that I got a couple of weeks ago that are beautiful and I kind of want to show the world, show them to the world, and but so I I started asking myself when? When do you bring that up, like to somebody?
Speaker 1:What do you do?
Speaker 2:And my answer is because of my personality, I pretty much bring it up right away.
Speaker 3:Like and, danielle, that is probably something that really attracts men to you. Cause this is what I found in dating is I'm not coy, I don't play games, I lay it out there, I don't try to act cool, I'm kind of dorky, I'm like whatever. Sometimes, danielle, during that first conversation, I might be like I need to pee, but I want to keep talking. You're going to hear, you're going to hear me pee right now because I just I'm going to mute it cause whatever. But I'm like getting comfortable with someone. Honestly, I think it's from sports too, like you know, if you're like thrown into like a roommate situation at like a camp or something it's like, let's get comfortable.
Speaker 3:We all know where this is hopefully going. But but just the, the willingness to be real and to like flow with things and to be interested in them and to not like make them work for it as far as, like you know, I I mean it just allows. I think what I feel for men is like their defenses are dropped and then the conversations we have are really great and then, even if it doesn't work out, danielle, even if it doesn't work out, there has been this connection that I can say you know, this isn't, this isn't working out, or I'm not where I wanted to be, or I need a break from this.
Speaker 2:Well, and sometimes I don't know about you, but you might have a really good rapport and you're, you guys get along great and it's a really fun banter. And then when you meet them, there's just not a physical chemistry Like it. Just even though you thought you had it, you had that emotional connection, you thought they looked good in the pictures, it was just there's just not a connection. Not a connection physically.
Speaker 3:I know there, I've had that, I've had that, I've had it too. This is what I'm realizing how much my mind and my story and my buy-in to like this dynamic or this attraction can turn me on right and get me excited. And I've used it a lot, Danielle, too, for getting excited about writing ideas, for really tuning it, Like me too. Because when you're chatting with someone or just starting the dating, there's like there's the fantasy fantasy levels turned up.
Speaker 3:It's like a drug, right, it's really like a drug. So you're like endorphins and your excitability is already kind of primed, so what I have used that to do, and sometimes I'll just be like boy crazy for a week or so but really we are so much alike in that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know.
Speaker 3:I got some kids and I got a business, and now I have this.
Speaker 2:I kind of need to do some other things.
Speaker 3:I got this house, I got a paperwork, so I got to keep running a business, because none of these men are sugar daddy situations.
Speaker 2:I'm never going to get choosing those either.
Speaker 3:But, danielle, I've asked myself because I've dated a few different kinds of men and most of them have graduate degrees and a lot of them have graduated or teach at Ivy League schools around Philadelphia Because, like you know, for like the area that I live in and liberal politics, and just like the ways that I'm swiping, I've had a certain like a few, certain kind of men that I've dated and I've really gotten, I've had the opportunity to feel into the dynamic of whether I want a man who's more successful than I am financially and also if I'm with a man who I think may be jealous of my success financially or if I'm with a man who, I think actually wants to throw it in their ex-wife's face.
Speaker 3:Look who I'm dating now, right, and that whole like sort of trophy energy, that like there's a piece of it that could feel good. And then there's this whole bunch of it that's like wait a minute, that's part of my appeal to you, and then I it's just how do I feel in these different areas of my life?
Speaker 2:You brought up something that I kind of noticed. It's a little different, you know, but about just reevaluating your type or what. The type of guy that you've always liked and mine is so basic. I've always, always, always, always I can't wait to hear and attracted to tall guys. I'm five feet tall, ashley, but I've always been attracted to tall guys, at least six feet. One of my exes was six four. I've always liked tall guys. It's just like it's the look that I'm attracted to long, lean muscles. And when I opened my mind and said why, like I'm five feet tall, why am I only a child?
Speaker 3:You're five feet tall, like I'm five, five. So I was like yeah, what if I dated?
Speaker 2:someone short Like what.
Speaker 3:Even if you're short, you're still taller than me.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:How short.
Speaker 2:That's been very interesting to realize that that's wild, because I I'm taller is not necessarily better when you're a small girl Like.
Speaker 3:Right, and so have you made out with somebody who's a shorter height, because it's a completely different dynamic the way your body is connected.
Speaker 2:It's way better. It's actually way more comfortable.
Speaker 3:Right, I know, I know because I'm five, five and I was married to a man who was like five, nine for like 20 years, right, and not like four inches is like Perfect. Yeah, I mean, it's so perfect because you just put your head up a little bit, you put their head down, your head like reach the rest on their shoulder because they're right there, right. And then I've dated guys. In college, though I dated guys who were like six, four, six, five. So I told myself, oh no, no, I definitely only want to date tall guys, ivy League guys, this and that.
Speaker 3:And then I'm dating this guy who has a plane and on our third day he flies me to Canada for 11 days. And I'm like, wow, these gestures feel great, right. And I'm like, wait a minute, what do I, daniel? You know the two moments that I still think about with that guy. I dated him for two and a half months. On our second day he made me a cup of tea here at my house and he brought it over to me and I don't think a man had ever made me a cup of tea, start to finish. And I was like I looked at him and I said to him I really appreciate you making me that tea. And he looked at me and he was like Okay, he was like no, but thank you.
Speaker 3:And I was just like, wow, the nurturing that I am craving, or the way this nurturing lands for me. That's the thing that I was like what really lands? And then there was this other time, very sexy. We're having sex. He's on top of me and he pushes back my hair like this and he goes. You look so beautiful right now. Boom, done, right. Those are the tenderness, but you're not dating him anymore.
Speaker 3:And the nurturing. No, I broke up with him because he's really I know it all kind of jerk, but we did have some good moments. We had some good moments. But for me to realize, and for me now, this guy I've been seeing for about a month, depending when this air has been seeing him since beginning of December. He is so incredibly nurturing, danielle like so that was important to you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you kind of take things from each experience, right?
Speaker 3:And to see what kind of misses out. And then I dated this guy who was so devoted, danielle, like, so devoted, like he would text me and triplicate Like I adore you, I adore you, I adore you, wow, I am yours, I am yours, I am yours. I was like this is this, is this is interesting, right? Yeah, he was so devoted and like he would just call me. Actually he called me as pretty witch, which was so. It was a term of endearment, because he was like are you a witch?
Speaker 2:So I met a witch before.
Speaker 3:I fell in love with a witch when I was in college and he was like, just, he was bewitched by me, incredibly, and I got to feel what that felt like for him to be like devotional in his words or his attention for me, and also to come over to my house after a retreat and to say what can I help with? And say, oh, can you put away this, these things, catering dishes with the lids right there, danielle, and I was debriefing with with my team and I looked over 20 minutes later and he was like I don't know where the tin foil is and like you don't even need the tin foil and also you could open like a cupboard. But like I was like oh, oh, yeah, like this devotion, but without the actual.
Speaker 3:The thing that I liked about the pilot he was very hands on. He would help me with things around my house. You know, even before he put me on his plane, he bought me a wheelbarrow and brought it over with his truck and took off his shirt and helped me set up a fountain in the yard and like replaced light bulbs, like very like hands on and, like you know, sort of like this nurturing sort of dad, sort of helpful masculine way, right. But then what I got to see with this guy, wine guy, is what I call him home dating, right now is like whoa, these like really kind words about what he appreciates about me.
Speaker 3:And then this, like boots on the ground, let me fix you a snack. Can I pour you a little prosecco? Oh, let me put this cheese in your mouth. You go sit down, I'm just gonna make risotto. Well, you tell me again that interesting thing you were telling me. I mean Danielle, I mean it's really like I'm really getting into, like he's now cooked for me with me to prep food for my kids twice now the week on the Sunday before they come, because my ex and I switched back and forth on Mondays week on week off, which I love the schedule.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we have a similar schedule, yeah.
Speaker 3:And I love being with my kids half the time. I'm gonna say it, I prefer it because I got really sad about a month after I left and I was like fuck him.
Speaker 1:They're missing him. They're working harder.
Speaker 3:I need to be here, but I'm the one so long. I mean, the kids are going back and forth, but I was the one who moved to and then I was kind of in that self pity for a few minutes and then I said to myself integrity check, fucking integrity check. Do you really want to go back? If you could go back to a situation where you would have the kids 100% of the time, whether that meant new husband drops in, whether that means ex-husband miraculously becomes a different, whatever you can have, whatever you want, ashley, do you want the kids full time? And it's like, actually no, I really like my freedom. And it's like, then stop itching about that. And that's something that's been and it's just an internal process, being honest. Yeah, it's just an internal process because our ego can have us feeling self pity when, danielle, actually we got what we wanted and we had just never been I loved my new house, it's very beautiful and exciting we
Speaker 3:had never been honest with ourselves about what we and I mean I think for some of us that's the reason our marriages didn't work is because we were trying to make this one thing work but it really wasn't a fit in so many different ways that we are so lucky they never got it together in that specific way. And there was finally that final straw, because our possibility for expansion and integrity and authentic living because I mean being in a marriage is a hard thing because you've got a partner you've got to keep working on things with and a lot of people just don't have the level of self-awareness and honesty. And this is what was ultimately the thing with the pilot. He really he presented himself as having more self-awareness and integrity and ability to look at his ego and be called out on things than he actually had. And it was hard because he would be really a know-it-all and really get into this kind of I told you so energy and doubled down, which for me he was like a minor league version of my mom. So it triggered in me.
Speaker 3:It was really valuable because it got to show me how I still have this codependent dance that I'll do to try to motivate other people towards kindness, to try to make them feel appreciated enough so that I don't really seem like a burden, because they're kind of acting like they're annoyed, even though I'm like we don't have to do that. Thank you, I just want you to know that I appreciate you. And he's like oh yeah, it's fine, it's fine, but then, like redoing things that electrician did, just to say you could do it, that's fucking weird behavior. No, like we're right to just know, like what is going on, what is getting along with someone, and then what is the line that we're not going to cross again, that we're going to say no, no, no, no, no new mistakes, only moving forward.
Speaker 3:We learned our lessons. We learned a lot of them the hard way. We want to hold on to that. Whether they were earned easily or hard, our lessons are our lessons and let's give reverence to the part of us that learned that, the younger version of ourselves that went through that, walked through those flames to learn it, by saying I'm not going to forget it Because I remember the words.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to make the same mistake again. I might make new mistakes.
Speaker 3:New mistakes. Only that's the teacher that I wanted to get made when I left skating Because I was like whoa. I know what integrity feels like and I know what it feels like.
Speaker 2:I have made some of the same mistakes that we're in over for so long.
Speaker 3:Because you're human, because you're human and because we don't know the lesson yet, when we keep making the mistake, we were muddled on the lesson and we were probably learning other things, but that one has to keep coming up for us until and then, danielle, when we really see it, when we really see it and there's resonance and we feel it is truth, even our ego can't argue against it anymore and it just drops, it just falls away. And then we're onto new mistakes, only in that department, because it was oh like the feeling of quiet and knowing that you get. When you're like, oh, I need to drop this, or oh, this is never the healing fantasy I have around. This is never gonna come true. That's the thing. Because we want things to be great.
Speaker 3:When we were kids, when we were young people, when we were starting our marriages, when we were young moms, we wanna do a good job, we wanna get along with the people around us and humans are complicated, so we bump up against each other and then we start compromising and sacrificing our integrity, because then we think, when they're doing better, they're gonna realize what I compromised and then it's gonna come back to me.
Speaker 3:We are the arbiters of our own experience 100% and we get to decide what goes out and what comes in right. And learning how to do that in interdependence with other people, I think is some of the great healing work that we've been called to do here in our lifetime, and that's why paying attention to these experiences and sharing about them in the ways that we do is so valuable to people, because there is an easier way. I think we are wired for harmony, we are wired for expansion, we are wired for ascension as humans, but there are so many human parts. Our human parts really trip us up. You know, just having yeah, just walking people through our own stories so they can see a bit of a possibility or framework or the proverbial light at the end of the tunnel, and I love that.
Speaker 2:I love that you brought that up, because that's one of the things I wanted to just talk about with you is just using your own story, sharing your own story to help other people and to connect with other, because I think you are living out loud To some extent. Obviously, there's a whole private life that goes on that we're not seeing, and it can be easy for some people to look at that and me too and judge you for that, like, why are you sharing your nipples to everyone? Why are you sharing your dating life? Why are you talking about your divorce and just see you as being narcissistic or whatever. But that's, I don't think it is.
Speaker 3:I think that we all know our motivations and one of the things that I had to ask myself multiple times a day when I was writing swing, when I was querying agents, when the book was being published I mean thousands and thousands and thousands of times I asked myself why am I sharing this story? Because there are scary parts to this. Why am I being like it's sort of an exhibitionist sort of share? And why is it, I would ask myself. And the reason I always kept coming up with? Because I would ask myself do I just fucking want attention? Am I just like? Am I an attention whore? Do I just want money? Do I have fucking daddy? What is my reason for sharing these things that most people would keep private? And my reason was, danielle, that my shame screamed so loudly in my ears every day that I could never tell anybody that story.
Speaker 3:And you know what, when I would look at the reality of this, I was like okay, listen, actually I am a choreographer. I have worked as a creative my whole life. I do coach. I did coach children. But I thought you know what, as a creative, changing careers and writing this story that is sexy.
Speaker 3:That I also know I can tell in a really funny way that I also know I'm leading with the sex, but that what I hear all the time is oh my God, that is a bait and switch. And I'm like I know, because it's easier for me to say it's like the complete idiot's guide for what not to do in the swing lifestyle. Or it's like eat, pray, love and 50 shades how to baby, and like that's the book swing. It's like eat, pray, love, but you're like instead of going to India, you're going to like sex clubs on these coast. Trying to explain the depth of something to somebody is often a fool's errand. So for me to say, yeah, here's this sexy, funny thing, and for it to actually have more depth, I would rather it go that way. And also I knew in sharing this that there were gonna be a lot of people who didn't like it, who it was too much for them, how it's just too uncomfortable for them.
Speaker 2:And then I knew there'd be a lot of people who were like yeah, especially the people that know you.
Speaker 3:But here's the thing, danielle me writing a book. What I had to do was really take out everybody who knew me. The only people I asked myself about were, okay, my husband and my children, who are named in the book. Can I do? I feel like I did write by them in the writing of this? Yes, for everybody else. I still have an incredible amount of shame that I wrote this book that reminds my parents that I have had sex and gone to sex clubs. Like I know, I still carry all of that and I have to go. No, no, that doesn't. That may be a thing, but I'm not letting that affect how I'm gonna go on with my life. But I would ask myself why do I really wanna do this? And the answer is because I think my writing can help people and I'm not as embarrassed as other people. I mean, I'm just not. I was a performer my whole life and I taught people to be a performer.
Speaker 3:Talking about taboo things actually grounds me, like when people are talking about things that make them uncomfortable. Like I feel calmer. Like when we're getting to the serious part, I'm like great people are gonna be more in integrity, right. Like I feel safer in those situations that people just joking around and like, or even playing a board game and changing the rules. That to me, feels unsafe, danielle, because I'm like wait, everybody needs to know what the rules are here. So, talking about something really taboo and knowing the rules are, we're probably gonna say things that are awkward and that's gonna be okay Incredible, especially for a perfectionist. Yeah, so, yeah, I don't.
Speaker 3:And there may be people who are like she just wants the, okay, cool. There are a lot of people who want attention online and who are not building a business. There are a lot of people who are selling sex or trying to sell sex and not making money. There are a lot of people you know write an expose, type like tell all book and it's not a best seller Like you know what I mean. Like there are a lot of it's like Brene Brown. You know the people in the arena. Like I, if I am not enamored by someone's career, I'm not going to be considering what they think about my career. If I am not in such ravenous lust and appreciation for the way that their marriage and romantic partnership looks, I'm not interested in what they think about my marriage. I'm not. So they were like, literally, danielle, there are two couples in the world who really love each other the way that I would want to be loved and like they are the only people I would take advice on from on how to do my relationships.
Speaker 2:Are they specific two couples, like the specific two couples that you know?
Speaker 3:Okay, Specific two couples that and they were both. Both of them stayed over at my house the night of my birthday and stayed in the back bedroom. So I got to be around all four of them, like during that night and during my birthday, and like I got to feel like what it's like to be celebrated by male friends who are just so loving and what it's like to be like celebrated together by, like, a couple who loves you together, do you?
Speaker 2:know what I mean.
Speaker 3:It was just like, yeah, they're real expanders for me as far as, like what I believe is possible, moving forward with relationships.
Speaker 1:Very cool.
Speaker 2:Oh, my gosh, we've only touched on the. I still feel like there's so much more I wanted to explore with you, but it's I love. I love talking to you. I love your energy. I'm I aspire to be more like you. I'm learning. I did buy your package. So tell us, tell everybody, where they can find you and what, what you kind of things, you're offering these days.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Okay, so you can find me at Ashley Renard on Instagram. Ashley is A-S-H-L-E-I-G-H, the Ashley spelling with all the extra letters Ashley Renard. On Instagram, I have lots of great keeping at hot products. That after dark webinars are super popular for people who are in a relationship or who are single, and that's something that I'm really talking about right now, too. The ways that we can take our solo play intentionally. Take our solo play, danielle, whether we are single or whether we are engaging in solo play while we're in a couple, but that we can use that time intentionally to experiment with things that we would like to experience, or things that we would like to do with a partner later, or climax more quickly, or climax more often, or like different things that we can do to then make us a more well-rounded lover with our next partners. Also, keeping it hot tip sheet is a great place to start. The new version of the tip sheet is about getting your partner to take the lead, or ways that you can take the lead. Just show a little bit more assertiveness.
Speaker 2:And that's a free download on your website Free download yeah. I've already been one of your on your email list, so I didn't. I don't think I got that one.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:All right. Well, it's been wonderful talking to you and I do hope that I get to attend something live with you soon. I know you've had some live retreats and different things. I'm hoping to make it one of these days. My life has been a little crazy in the last year or so, but I'm working on it.
Speaker 3:I can't wait, I'll give you a hug right here and then I'll say, probably I word of the year.
Speaker 2:Ashley, is partially motivated by you. It's release and I like the release in all senses of the word. The one that I don't really talk about is the sexual part, but the other parts are releasing the things, the belief and patterns that don't work for us, releasing the tendency to try to please everybody, releasing all of that negative stuff and then also releasing your joy and your true goodness and kindness and value to the world Right.
Speaker 3:Right, because the release is.
Speaker 2:It's almost like you're opening. Release is positive and negative.
Speaker 3:You're opening up this cycle, you're opening up the channel Right Of what can go can go, what can come can come. Really, that's such a good one.
Speaker 2:What's your? Do you do that? Do you do that I do?
Speaker 3:And in the past couple of years, like 2021, I couldn't come up with a word. It was so weird, it was so hard. I had for like 10 years I had a word, I couldn't come up with it, or 2022. So last year, 2023, my word came to me. Like November or December of the year before I was journaling. I opened a new planner for the next year and Triumph came and I was like Triumph, Can I even think of one Triumph song? Like what does Triumph even feel like? Like what Triumph? It feels like so like like a fairy tale, something. I'm like what? It's not even a real feeling. I hear people going wee, Triumph, we are the champions. And the closest I could get was I am the tiger.
Speaker 2:I was like I couldn't even get to a Triumph thing I could get for like that, there's actually a lot of Triumph and songs.
Speaker 3:No, but I couldn't because I was like. I was like I know how to get pumped up, but I don't know how to feel accomplished. I don't, I don't know what that feels like. So last year, my whole year was investigating what does Triumph feel like? And then I, in March, I decided I'm leaving my marriage and I'm moving out and like I'm like, oh, wow, this isn't how I thought it would look, but here, wow and like. This year, on so many physical levels, I was so triumphant in taking care of myself and taking care of my kids and renovating this house and like, keeping the lights on Daniel, Like, like. And then what came to me just the last week of December for this next year, for 2024, is celebration.
Speaker 1:I like that. I love that actually.
Speaker 3:Celebrate good times. Come on, all right.
Speaker 2:We'll end on that note. It's been wonderful chatting with you and can't wait to meet you in person some days. Yeah, can't wait.
Speaker 3:Thanks, Daniel Bye.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much.