Unpausing Your Marriage: Love, Disconnection and Finding Your Way Back to "We" with Dr. Lee Baucom

A real conversation on connection, disconnection, and the quiet habits that either build or break a relationship

In this episode of Piece of Work, Danielle sits down with marriage coach, author, and host of the Save the Marriage and Thriveology podcasts, Dr. Lee Baucom, for a conversation that feels less like an interview and more like two people trying to make sense of something we all wrestle with—love, connection, and what happens when it starts to slip.

If you’ve ever wondered why some relationships fall apart while others find their way back, this one goes deeper than surface-level advice. They talk honestly about the “pause button” so many couples hit without realizing it, the difference between fitting in and truly belonging, and why communication isn’t always the real problem.

They unpack what it actually looks like to be a “we” without losing yourself, how small moments of connection matter more than grand gestures, and why waiting for things to magically get better rarely works.

There’s also space for nuance here—because Danielle doesn’t believe every marriage can or should be saved. She shares parts of her own experience and reflects on that tension of still believing in marriage while also knowing when something isn’t right.

Dr. Lee has spent over two decades helping individuals and couples break through the patterns that keep them stuck, and his work is grounded in simple, practical ways to rebuild connection.

You can learn more about his work at:
 unpauseyourmarriage.com
 savethemarriage.com

This episode is for anyone who:

• Feels disconnected in their relationship
• Keeps having the same conversations on repeat
• Wonders if there’s still something worth rebuilding
• Or just wants a more honest, grounded perspective on love and commitment

It’s not about perfection or quick fixes. It’s about understanding what’s really happening underneath—and deciding what you want to do with that.

Listen in and ask yourself:

Are we connected… or just going through the motions?

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Transcript

Audio Only - All Participants 1:08

Welcome back to Piece of Work. I'm Danielle, and today I am joined by Dr. Lee Baucom. He's a marriage coach, author of seven books and host of the Save the Marriage Podcast and Thriveology podcast. For over two decades, he's helped thousands of couples pull back from the brink of divorce through his coaching online programs and a straightforward philosophy. He can't save your marriage, but he can show you how to. Dr. Baucom specializes in helping individuals break through the internal barriers, fear, identity, and mindset that keep them stuck. And his work has made him a trusted voice for anyone who wants to do the hard, important work of transforming their relationship. Thanks for being on here today. Can I call you Lee or do you want me to call you Doctor, or what? Oh, please just call me Lee. What are you comfortable with? Just Lee. All right. We'll do just Lee. I laugh about that because as I mentioned right before we pressed record, you are the very first guest on this podcast who I don't know personally. You reached out to me because you had heard of my podcast and heard my recent episode about divorce and marriage and thought it might be a good fit. And I totally agree, and it might be surprising to somebody that I would agree because I think. That it can come across as if I don't believe in marriage. And I don't believe in the things that you say in your work, and I very much do. So I'm excited about this conversation. We're just gonna have a natural conversation. Get to know each other well. The person who's listening maybe learns a few things from. From us both. So thanks for being here. Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm excited to have the talk. So what yeah what inspired you to reach out to me? Like what made you think that this would be a good fit? So your conversation that you had, that, that episode where you talked about your own experience I always am looking for the places where people want to expand. An understanding for people that, and you're having conversations about understanding that's what podcasts do, that's what your podcast does, is to help people think through these different topics from different perspectives. So I thought this would be a good place to, to talk about that and just explore how that fits together. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I love that. Yeah. I think it's it's, life is not as black and white as we might, some people might wish it was, it's very nuanced and you can be someone who's been married three times and divorced three times and still very much believe in marriage. Like I. Would've loved to marry my high school sweetheart and stay married the rest of my life. I wanted that to happen. And I think in many ways the reason that it didn't happen or that I'm not still married to my first husband is because of that dream and that ideal that I had when I was younger and always trying to make the relationships that I did have fit. And not so much settling because, but almost like I used to think of it as like a jigsaw puzzle. Like I was a jigsaw piece and I would easily merge myself into the type of person that fit into each relationship I was in when I was younger and or at least try to, you can't easily do that. You could two, two realize that a couple years in that it wasn't working. Yeah. And I couldn't be someone I wasn't, but because, but I think I as we'll probably learn as we discussed there is some of that. You do have to meld and mold yourself, and when you're trying to, work with somebody else, you do have to compromise. And you do have to not settle. But like you, you do have to change and listen and but let me see if I can bring in some, yeah. Some I would pieces would love to, yeah. Yeah. Go. So I don't know that it's about changing your core self. The, you can't do that easily without some pretty major repercussions. But, you used a couple words like compromising and finding a way of working together. That's one piece that's more of a life and a where we headed kind of piece versus who you truly are. So there's a lot of research that's come out now about how important we have as humans to feel like we matter to somebody. And if what you're doing is trying to fit for somebody, it doesn't make you feel like you matter as much as whatever that is that you're trying to create. Brene Brown talks about the difference between belonging and fitting in. And when you're, what you're describing sounds a lot like you were trying to fit in. Absolutely. And make yourself that person versus belonging where somebody goes, wow, who you are is what I love. Absolutely not this ideal. It's interesting that just I guess it's been about a week or so I was on another podcast that they like to look at romance novels and critique them from a real what does this mean about life? And and one of the things that we talked about is the fact that all these novels take it to the, and they lived happily ever after. That's still there. And that's one of the things that we carry with us from, being surrounded in this culture by Disney and books and everything else is that you don't get the happily ever after knowledge piece. And so you do all of this trying to get there, and then you have these expectations sitting in your mind about what that's gonna look like without anybody ever pointing out whether those expectations are useful, harmful. Anything else. And so that's the story that it sounds like you were describing that's different than the finding a way to fit our lives together versus finding a way for me to fit in your expectation. Yes. I think you've just Yeah, exactly. Express what I was trying to express because yeah, there is some compromise and there is absolutely that, you can't just be like, oh, I'm this way and you're this way and that's it. We just don't agree. We don't handle conflict the same. And it is what it is, and this is my personality. Take it or leave it. There's, that's not realistic either. When you love someone, you do and I can't find the word because I, it's at the tip of my tongue. Like it, I don't wanna say you change for them because I agree with you that you don't change at who you are at the core, but you make adjustments and you so lemme see if this would help. I see marriage as being a system, right? And a dance would be an example of that. So you're doing steps together and as you get to know each other better and you get further in your relationship, those steps. Need to change. You have to find a way to accommodate the more complexities that come your way. But you're doing that together in a strong marriage. You're finding ways of navigating that dance together and and so that system does change how it goes through life and the different stages of life. So there's several people who have theorized that we actually have. If you stay married to the same person through your life, you still have multiple marriages within that, that it changes as you go. I've been married now for 38 years. It'll be 39 in August to the same person. And I can tell you there had been multiple marriages within that, there was the, when we were just married and both grad students and struggling, and we had to just join together to survive because you don't pay rent while you're doing training and then working retail on the side, right? So we struggle through that together. Then there was the period of time when our kids started coming into our lives and the various points of their them, because when they're, when they're young, there's one that's one group. When they're teens, that's another, when they're off to college, that's another, and it's continued to go. Even if you are in the same relationship, the dance steps are going to change as life takes different turns in it. But I think what you're naming is the fact that you have to adjust to the system and the system is adjusting to the life that you're living. Absolutely. Yeah. I love that. I think that we're describing it as a dance and a dance that changes as you age, as you go through different seasons. Absolutely. Yeah. You named some of the, some of those seasons that can be really hard and each one at each one. I think there, there can be a moment when you're either gonna move together. Or you're gonna step on each other's toes and get mad and walk away from the dance floor. And sometimes it's not your choice. Like sometimes even when you are the one that really wants to make it work, you ultimately have to make the choice to, to leave because the other person is not willing to adjust. So you, you have a, an idea I believe, based on your reading and listening to your podcast, that. All marriages can be saved, most marriages can be saved. What? Yeah. Tell me, let's talk about that. What's your thoughts on that? Yes. What does it take to save a marriage that might be headed for some trouble? Yeah. So let's talk about this. That brings in a number of things. So let's just break down first, what do I believe about whether a marriage, all marriages are saveable? So I have saved the marriage. So you would think that I'm all about every marriage being saved. I don't think that is possible for a couple of reasons. Sometimes there's too much damage done in the relationship. There's just too far gone. Sometimes people find that they actually have found a toxic person to be married to and truly cannot stay in a marriage in a healthy way. That's two different categories, but it's the end result. There's just nothing to be revived here. So question about that. Yes. Do you think that, do you think that it's, that people can be. Toxic in a specific relationship, but not necessarily a toxic person as a whole. Maybe they're a great person and, but just the two of them together. It creates a toxic, yeah. So that's less about the person being toxic and the dynamics between them have become toxic. When I'm talking about a toxic person, I'm meaning somebody who is and I'm using this on a clinical level, is very narcissistic and unable to connect or is abusive suffers from addictions or something else that prevents them from being willing and able to step into the relationship as a partnership. So absolutely that toxicity. I mean my bottom line is if you are in an abusive situation, you do not work to save the marriage that is truly toxic. But then there are people who are really toxic and still not abusive. In a direct way right there indirectly. Yeah. There are gray areas for sure. Sure. And that often requires some professional help to determine, because sometimes people see their spouse as toxic because they're relating has become toxic. And so sometimes people make an assumption. I've many times had a spouse come into my office and I am expecting them to come in with horns out of their head and a horny tail, and they come in and they're very pleasant people. But the toxicity between them has meant that both one or both see each other as a problem person, not the problems in their relationship. Just to get back that, that though means that we have sometimes relationships that have become so toxic that there's nothing there to revive. So that's the group of Yeah. They're not gonna be saved. What I'd like to help people understand is that there are a large number of relationships that end up in divorce that didn't have to get to that point, and that there is capacity for there to be health without that happening. And this is particularly true, for instance, when there are kids involved, that it's worth an effort to see. And that's the problem. There's only one way to figure out let's erase the ones that are a toxic person and you've gotta get out to be safe. The only way to determine whether it is too far gone or can be saved. Is to try. And so my kind of, my bottom line is my optimal is we save your relationship. You build a relationship that you would love and you both want to be in. And that's the optimal, the minimal though, is to be able to say, you know what? I worked as hard as I could for what I'm willing to do. Couldn't save it. But I don't have regrets about that. What I don't like seeing are people who look back and go, oh, I wish I had tried because regret is just a tough thing to get past. Yeah. So no, I don't think everything could be saved. I think more could be saved than are Yeah. I would definitely agree with that. And on all fronts. And I think that was the biggest thing in my last marriage was we really tried on for many years in many different ways. And it was just, it wasn't gonna happen. It wasn't gonna change. And it was it had gotten so toxic. And I don't believe I don't like to call a person toxic.'cause I don't think anyone's all of anything. We I've been very careful to not put any blame or not put all the blame on any one person. Because I just think that it's more nuanced and it's more complicated than that. Even if that person is narcissistic or emotionally abusive or it's, they're not all of that. They're very rarely all of that. If someone's an alcoholic, that's not the only defining characteristic of their personality, right? It's like something that they struggle with, but. There's, yeah, obviously, and that is my thing, is that when we see people and so clinically speaking, when you see somebody that would fall into the classification, which is not a clinical classification of toxic, but to use that as, somebody who's toxic, they've been in toxic situations themselves that, we, people who are shaped by that traumatized early in life, often repeat traumatization through life. And yeah, you're right. We can have an empathy for that. I think though, if somebody feels like they are actually being abused, that's not the time for empathy for that. Absolutely. But other than that, you're correct. I think that there we often use labels as a way of saying, I'm not gonna deal with this. Yeah, absolutely. I think, and I think the key and what I tried to touch on a little bit in the podcast that I published a couple weeks ago, was that okay, even if you do determine that, that your relationship is not gonna work, and you mentioned this too, this is still somebody that is gonna be in your life. If you have kids, you're still gonna be in your life for the rest of your life, for life. And that you're still gonna have to deal with them. And so figuring out, figuring out what. What can make it less toxic is important, even if you're ultimately not able to save the marriage. So I agree with that. Yeah. In fact, the, one of the things that I, it's the fantasy or myth of divorce is that, okay I'll not have to deal with this person. They'll be outta my life. And there are lots of situations where that is the case. If there are no kids nothing to bond you together. Sure. You go separate ways and you can have them out of your life. The thing that I often hear from people is that because there are kids involved, they have more communication. Post divorce than they were having in the period before the divorce because they'd become disconnected, but they were still running things just disconnected. And suddenly they have to communicate the, our problem. And this is I mean you'll recognize it in the nursing world. If somebody's in pain, they're aware of the pain and only the pain we get fixated so strongly on the pain. It overrides everything else. It overrides everything else. So I'm so in so much pain, I just wanna be away from this person and not calculating this isn't going to get me away if there are kids involved. They take actions to move away from what they perceive as the pain only to step into continuing the relationship. And if the dynamics aren't addressed, they just get dragged into the post-divorce co-parenting relationship. Yeah. And that can be miserable for years and years. And it's, yeah, it's a cycle that. That should be addressed. I agree. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So let's go back to saving the marriage though. Let's assume, so after all these years working with couples, what do you think actually makes the biggest difference in whether a relationship makes it or not? Great question. My belief is that if people can establish a being, a we, and I wanna define what I mean by that, but being a, we, they generally can weather things in life. Like we are in this together. We are a team, we are a unit. That does not mean I lose me. It just means that I see where we are in this together. And that cuts across so many areas of life, like our money. That's one of the places I often see people not able to get there. They go, your money, my money what do you get? What do I get? And there's really in a household. There's stuff coming in and there's stuff going out. However you do, the accounting is separate from that single fact. We have resources coming in, resources going out. And when you say mine and yours, you're dividing something that is our resource. And it shows where people are thinking. I think that helps people a lot. And now that's a piece of it. The other piece is having a strong connection together. And that is to me, the root cause of why most relationships get into trouble. They hit the pause button as I talk about it. And that pause button is after spinning all of the early stages, building a relationship building the momentum, building the connection. They decide they'll spend the rest of their lives together. They have a short little ceremony. And then at some point after that go, okay, now we've got that nailed down. In fact, I've heard people say, alright, we've got it nailed down now we'll do these other things. And I'm like you don't ever have a relationship nailed down. Yeah. No, but they think that, and so they're like, okay, now we'll turn our attention to parenting careers, hobbies, aging, parents, friends, travel, whatever it is that needs that energy, they think. And so that's hitting the pause button and. I watch it enough to know they do it with the best of intentions. W we've got our relationship, it's good, we've got our love, so now let's focus on these other things and we'll get back to us when, and it's always down into the future, right? When my career is here, and then when it's to here, it's to here. And when it's, we get there and know to hear when the kids are, outta diapers in school, outta school, on and on it goes. It's always, will always get back to us. And what you're weaving in there is disconnection. So you spend all this time connecting, then you start doing these other things and you create habits of disconnection. And the disconnection is what leads to the pain, it's what leads to the symptoms we see because we humans don't lose our need for connection just because we're putting our energy elsewhere. And so if it's not in the relationship, that's where the pain develops. I should be getting this and it's my pain that I'm aware of. Not our pain, right? But my pain. And so I get focused on, I'm not getting the connection I want. And then that begins to eat away. The distance begins to grow. And so it ends up being a hurtful, painful, disrespectful, and then finally disdainful relationship. Yep. I have seen all of that play out in my relationships and in clients' relationships. And in patients' relationships. And in relationships. Absolutely. So for somebody who really wants their relationship to work, what are some signs that there's still something to solid to build on? Something to hold onto. I always prefer there to be some emotions in there than just nothing in there. I'm, when I see someone who's I just, I feel nothing. Disdain is all that's there. That is a problem. Because there's nothing that's, there's no energy there anymore. I, and and people's say my spouse is all angry right now and upset. And I'm like, okay, we've got something there though, right? That's, there's energy still there. There's still connection there. And while right now it's not connected in a positive way, there's still a con, there's still an energy exchange. When there is just nothing like. I've had people in my office and I'm like, I know you guys are married, but there is zero energy. It's like a vacuum exists here. And I had a couple who surprising to me, restored their relationship, who basically looked at me and said, look, we're here to deal with our teenage son and we are business partners in this. That's, we just have a business partnership. Yeah. And then they one day went, and you know what? That's not enough. And they were able to restore it so that, there are times when it surprises me too. The problem is there's not energy for them to turn around and invest. They just don't have any desire to, and that's really the problem. Sometimes the, I don't have any desire is almost a negative desire. Like I am so done with you just get away. So that's the tough point. Now is there a way that you can help people or that people who might be listening can think of. Helping themselves to, to just rekindle or remember those feelings, those positive feelings, because obviously they had them at one point. They at one point loved this person and thought they were the best person on earth. They were their person and they wanted to spend the rest of their life with them. So is there anything that we can do and were in that situation where we're the feelings are gone, how can we rekindle that? Yeah, that's a great question. Find that again. So one of the reasons I like to point out the pause button is because people can realize that they're often focused on symptoms of what's wrong rather than the cause of what's wrong. And when we go, oh wait, we did hit the pause button, then that brings in a place of going, okay, then what do we need to do to unpause it? And one piece of that is you're correct, is being able to look back and go, we did have this connection one time. How did we do that? What was that connection about? That often helps people understand the pieces back. This, it may be helpful, let's talk about the three dimensions or levels of connection because this helps people see where they disconnected, but it also helps people have targets for reconnecting. The first one is physical connection. That's loving touch. And whenever I say that in a group, they often go, oh, you mean sex? And my response is no, but you, yes. That is one way, but when we cap it at that we're in trouble because there's also hugs and kisses and back rubs, and just touches any loving touch. That is the type of connection that warm-blooded creatures understand. For the most part, my puppy dog is Yeah. Lying beside me, and that's her understanding when absolutely I'm on the couch, Clementine jumps up and gets up against me. She wants to be physically close. So that is a very core level of connection that goes all the way back to our being babies and being held. Yeah. That's just that connection And and in the nursing world knows this right? When you're patting a patient that's letting them know somebody's here and we're connected. Yeah. So this is a way that we connect with friends and children and everyone else, but it's especially pronounced in a marriage or should be. Yeah. So that's one place that people disconnect and that's non-verbal. The second is emotional connection. An emotional connection is both verbal and nonverbal. So as we're talking, we can be nodding along with each other in agreement. That's a nonverbal. I get you. I understand what you're saying. But verbally, we're expressing things and my wife and I, many times, the kids are doing, so this is when my kids are younger, they're adults now, but we would look at each other and just do the mutual eye roll. And we knew we were on each other on the same page with each other about that. So we didn't. And so we felt emotionally connected. I get you, you get me, that's one layer. I support you, you support me. That's the other clear area of emotional connection to feel that. Then there is spiritual connection. And when I say that, that's when people go, oh, you mean religion? And my response is, no. But yes, because that is a deep level of value and meaning that we bring in. But when we talk to somebody about our hopes and dreams what we fear in life, where we've been in life, that's a, that is telling somebody about some deep places. And interestingly, that's one of the areas that I would see a lot of premarital couples in my practice. They had to see me three times before they got married in seven different locations. So I heard lots of stories about how they came to be. And almost always included this conversation where they did a kind of a data load of here's where I came from, here's what's important to me. And they would often say, I was attracted to them physical and. Some emotional connection. I knew I liked who they were. That's that emotional connection, but that's where I fell in love with. Who they are at this deep level. Many times that conversation happens 2, 3, 4 times and then we just assume, and so that, that's a quick disconnection for lots of couples'cause there's just not time for those deep conversations. And I put quotes around the just not time because it doesn't take a lot of time to be talking about those things, especially if they're doing life together and going through the weeks. And just point to some small things too. Going to a, reading a book, seeing a TV show, going to a movie that had some impact on what you think and brought some thoughts to your mind is sharing spiritual connection. When you talk about that could be a drive home from the movie theater going, wow, that meant this to me. So it doesn't have to be this heavy duty four hour conversation. That is where people fall in love for it to be an update on this is important to me, and those are the areas that get disconnected, but they also create the places we go back for connection when we realize that disconnection. So to your point, to be able to think back and go, where were we connected? How did we get there? What were those connections about? Means that we're doing a couple things. One is we're remembering that piece. We're reconnecting with that piece. But two is we're also going, oh, now I have some data for how I might begin to warm that back up. Yeah. Very interesting. I love a lot of things you said. I have a, I have some questions too, but Sure. I'll come back to them. I've been writing some notes. I guess one thing, one thought I had is just though I love those three levels, I totally agree and in my experience, you can still have a lot of connection in all three of those levels and yet have a marriage that is not able to be saved. I, I feel, based on my experience. Because a lot of times the under piece of not being a team together means that you're having so let's physical connection. One of the reasons that people often make that about sex is because that is often the last piece. It's still happening and Right. And it is more about this is the drive. Either the physical drive or sometimes going through the motions of this is just, you know what I, that's what we do. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not, so that can be, that's there is a way for sex to be non connecting. When we get to that point, emotional stuff, I often see people thinking they're emotionally connecting when they're actually just reporting to each other. And so I'll draw a distinction between reporting and reporting. You build a rapport with somebody that's connection, but reporting. So at the end of the day, how was your day? Oh, I had two meetings and I had to turn in this report. That's not how your day was. That's what you did. That's a report, right? Absolutely. But it feels like that. What'd you, what were you doing today? I took the kids to this. I took the kids to that. That's not a lot of interior stuff. And so you think you're having these conversations that are connecting when really you're just reporting each other's day to each other? And actually as I'm thinking through it, if I'm really honest, the emotional part is where my last marriage broke down. Because we weren't connecting emotionally. We did, at one point, we had a very strong emotional connection, but on a regular basis we were failing to really connect, really hear each other, really understand each other in a, in the way we needed to be understood. Each of us. So true. And probably the spiritual as well, a little bit. Hopes and dreams, fears that, like we saw things pretty differently, but mostly it was like communication, just not listening, not, just arguing, bickering all the time. So here's the interesting thing. That is one of my criticisms of what happened to marriage therapy. It defaulted to communication is the problem. And I would repeatedly have people come into my office going I think you need to te teach us communication skills. And so I would just sit there and play along 15, 20, 25, 30 minutes. I would let them talk. And then I would say, you know what? It's interesting. I've understood every single word you've said. You've understood every single word you have said. It's not communication. It may be what you're communicating. And there's a difference between those two things. Are you communicating disconnection or connection? Interesting. And so when we make it about communication, most people don't actually have big communication problems. It's what they're communicating. So I always compare communication to just being just like pipes in a house. They carry things in and out. And it's whether you've got it hooked up, right? Are you bringing in clean water or are. Clean, bringing in bad water. And it's just the connection piece. It's a way of delivering. And so I've also said that is a pipe taking out the poop or is it a pipe bringing in the clean water? You've got a reverse, you've got a problem, right? And so you're delivering something with that communication. So are you delivering further connection or not? And so often I've said to couples, if I give you more communication skills, all I'm gonna be doing is helping you be more skilled at your fighting because you're at a disconnection point. You'll do a better job of delivering the yucky stuff rather than turning it on to the good stuff because the good stuff's not what's going between you. Yeah, I hear it. Yeah. Love it. All right. So you talk about focusing on what we can control what are some simple ways people can start doing that in their relationship? I am gonna bring in a little, a more theory, a little more framework for this. So I believe that there are three things we can control, right? Three things that we can control are our aspirations, our attitude, and our actions. That's all. So our aspirations, what do we want to move towards? I can't control my fears, they just happen to pop into my head. That's what our brain is doing. Cooking up what I can be fearful about, but our aspirations. I can decide I want to move towards something so I could decide, I wanna write a book. That's an aspiration, right? I can't make it a bestseller, but I could write the book that's in my control. So aspiration. Second thing is attitude. And that is basically, and it is not. Do I always have a positive attitude? Is not what I mean. But do I have an attitude of I give up and walk away, or I'm going to figure this out? Those two directions and sometimes. I give up and walk away is what you do in things. Like you may, let's say a business, somebody's in a business and they go, this has run its course. I'm not gonna keep trying to make this work. We need to shut it down. That's a walk away. That makes sense. And there are always times for that. Then there is the, I'll figure it out, which is, let's see if we can find a roadmap for this a direction to do this. And the last thing is our actions, what we do, and don't do what we say and we don't say That's the three things we can control. So I say that to people because I often watch people trying to control what they cannot control. Like their spouse's actions and feelings and Yeah. Attitudes and all of that versus them focusing on what they can control. And so when we draw back, the ask reminds me of the serenity prayer. God grant me the wisdom to what? Yeah. I can't do it on the spot, but yeah. Like control. No, but you're right. Control what you can control and the wisdom to know the difference. Yes. And that wisdom is part of what is helpful when people go, okay, what am I trying to control here? So now we I've put people into the driver's seat of what they can actually control. Those, just those three things. And then the question is, so how do you want to be, how do you want to act? How do you wanna show up in this? And that's where they have some power. Am I going to react? So one of the things that so let's draw a distinction between reacting and responding. Reacting is allowing our biology to get activated and immediately lashing out or immediately fleeing the scene, which is fight or flight. It's us going on automatic and our brains do that very quickly because our brains are about surviving. And so it's predisposed to the fight flight response when it feels like there's a threat. It's just. It's allowed the genes to descend to us by being extra careful about what's going on around us. So we've got that, that we're just dealing with. Biology responses though are based in our values. Is this how I want to be responding? That's a value choice. And I have a framework the, it's a pivot framework where it asks the question, are you moving into your values and taking action based on those values? Or are you still stuck in the reaction? And the beginning point of pivot is pause when everything's going on. You pause for a minute and that I'm smiling because this, I wanna know the entire framework, but it is so running in parallel with the framework that I developed for resilience, which is. I will talk about that in a second, but what are the, yeah, so pivot pauses first, then what? Yeah, so p pause and observe is the beginning point, right? Pause allows you to take a few minutes. And I'm sorry I jumped the gun there. The I is for identify, which is the same kind of a as absorbing or observing. So we pause. This is when the kind of, the fear is kicking in, which often is what creates kind of the anger response for people when they're lashing out because they're hurtful thing, they're feeling hurt, they're feeling fear, or they're feeling threat. Those are the th things that kind of create the anger. So that's taking some breaths. Taking a moment to just ground yourself and choosing not to just suddenly. React, right? Then identify is asking which of my big fears is activated? So there are three big fears and they are not, am I enough? Do I have enough and am I good enough? Those three. So not enough is about just that self place of, is there enough for me? Not loved enough is another important one because we as creatures exist in relationships and our ancestors that they weren't loved enough we're in deep trouble in survival. Yeah. So that's deeply rooted in there. Amazing. And am I good enough? Am I able to take care of myself and take care of that around me? So that's figuring out which of those is getting activated. Just identify that because whenever we can name what's going on, we have some sense of control. So part of that identifying is just noticing the patterns that we're running. Because that they tend to be repetitious when we've gotten into the pattern. So then the values come in, that's the v what part, what kind of partner do I want to be? How do I want to show up in life? How do I want to interact in this process? And when we get to the values piece it's much more rooted in our deepest self so that's that deep part of ourselves. Which allows us to then ask the options question. So what are my options here? And some, that options thing means that there is more than one choice here. Reaction often feels like it's just one thing I gotta do, I've gotta lash out or I've gotta run away. That, it's, that's one thing. It's fight flight, but it's still just activation options is how do I want to be in this? What are the possibilities? The t though is to take action because I've seen people who. Go through the process, and then they do nothing different, and they just get stuck. And so taking action is deciding how you want to move forward, how do you wanna respond, and how do you want to build rather than break. I love that. I think that is so spot on. And also as I'm listening, again I just have a tendency to take everything and internalize it and then ask myself how it played into my own experience. Sure. And I can see, where it broke down and why, we were unsuccessful. I don't know that we were truly unsuccessful because we're really good friends now but unsuccessful at keeping our marriage. But it, again, I just have to say it's, I love this framework. I love frameworks, I love just the idea of them. I love when you can take something that's something maybe you do intuitively or automatically and break it down into something that's teachable and that that you can, that, that people can use in their own life or making it transferable. That's exactly, and it's, that's what's importants. So similar to the framework that I came up with for mine is about resilience. People would ask me, how are you so resilient? How do you just bounce back from whatever happens to you? And I had a friend at work and she was watching me kind of work through something like in the minute, in the moment. And then later, as I was working with coaching clients, trying to figure out how I could help other people have more resilience and have more, deal with difficult people, deal with di diagnoses, deal with loss or grief. I was like, what? How, okay, what do I do? And I broke it down and I wanna bring it up, not to take the attention off of you, but because it's so similar. And I came to such a similar place. So mine is the five R method, five R resilience method. And over the last couple of years I've had different rs that, that played into that, that I decided to use as I was trying to develop this framework. But what I settled on was refresh, renew, release, reconnect, and rise. And the rise. The last one was originally react. And then I was like, no, I react isn't the right word. Because like you said, react is more just visceral. Like just a quick reaction. And then I was like, no, I want it to be, respond instead. And then I was like, no, that's still not quite it. It's not just a response it's rise is like you're coming to the whole thing from an entirely higher place. But the other steps are very much like yours. Refresh is taking a pause, taking a breath. Like you refresh your computer screen or take a nap. Refresh is stopping. Just to observe I think you're talking about something that's a little beyond resilience. I, this is why I think so. The, I was interested long ago one of my frustrations with psychology was it's always what's wrong with people. What caused the problems? And so there was research done and it actually was back. Way back when Hawaii was not a destination, it was enclosed islands and people who were there were, that's just where they were living. And so the researchers went in to see what happens when people have poverty and addictions and mental illness and families, and watch what would happen to people so they could prove that these bad things lead to bad outcomes for people. It was basically the bad psychology. What's wrong with people's psychology? And the researchers kept finding people who like did just fine. Like they had a normal life and I want to use that term, normal. And so they started researching what they called resilience. Like how do you get, how do you take on these difficult things and get back to zero? But that's not actually what you're describing. You're describing what I call thriving, where you rise up above that. I don't think that's what resilience Yeah. I agree. Yeah, totally. And so the, so we're calling it resilience, but you're right, there's some, there's a step above. How do you grow through that? How do you learn from it? And my thing is that is what we as humans do with challenges. How do I make my muscle bigger? I lift something heavy to challenge it. Absolutely. How do I, when I learn something, what does that mean for me? It gets me to a new place. So when couples the resilience thing when it's been applied to couples has been they have a problem, they dip down, but then they get back to where they were. But I see that they often get above that because they take that on as a learning experience and go, okay, now we understand this. And so now we're doing what I call thriving. Yeah. You grow through what you go through. Yeah. I. I actually, I'm thankful for all the hard things I've gone through. Honestly, I, it's hard to say that. And there's, there's verses in the Bible that even like in James where it is talking about be joyful and you know that all these things are happening to you. I'm doing a terrible paraphrase. Another thing I think about is like when I remember when I first became a Christian,'cause I was raised Jewish and then I became a Christian. And I remember like in prayer circles or whatever, people saying, be careful when you pray for patience, all God's gonna do is give you something to be patient about. Yeah. Make things really trying. So you really have to work on that patience. That's how you, that's how you get patience. So I, that kind of stuck with me. And I wrote, I just recently completed my manuscript for my book called Resilient and. I wrote that just like patience is only built through the things that, that try to break your patience. Resilience is only built through the things that try to break you and that you have to go through the hard things. But I love that. I agree thriving. I'm a breast cancer survivor. I don't believe in being a survivor. I believe in being a thriver and using that experience to make me even better. And I like, I think that's the key that I that's what I think of as resilience is bouncing back better. Not just pushing through, not just ignoring the pain, but you becoming something stronger. And I love that analogy of the lifting weights. We lift weights to make our muscles stronger. Yeah, break, break them down to build them up. That's really, you're doing micro tears there to get it to build up. I've had couples who, or people who have often come to me and said, I just wanna get back to where we were, two years ago, three years ago, five years ago. And I'm like, no, you don't. Because if you go back to that, you're just headed to here again. You have to do something different. And so learn from this experience, learn from where you've been, and take it to a different level, a higher level, because then that doesn't have to happen again. You've learned from that and grown beyond it. Absolutely. Love that. Yeah. So mine was, so then refresh was, is take a pause. Renew is very very similar. It's more the mental, renewing your mind, renew, challenging your beliefs and your thoughts about something. Release is letting go of the expectations and the negative emotions and all that stuff that. Is getting in the way. Reconnect is reconnecting with yourself, with your source, with your, with a friend, with a therapist, with a coach. And then Rise is coming. So it's, I love that. I think we're like, we're very much on the same. Yep. For sure. Page. And even though we're talking about slightly different things, I think it, it's all related. It is. Yeah. And if we do that, my, my observation is that there, we don't create new frameworks, we rediscover frameworks and we rename them. But we're delivering similar messages, just different people hear it. Yeah. I love it. What else? What about when things feel stuck? Like when people feel like they're having the same conversations over and. They feel like maybe they're trying, they're doing all this stuff that you're saying. Let's say I'm, I've been, listening to you and learning from you and I've been trying to do this pivot thing, but my spouse just isn't doing it. What helps people break out of that pattern? Or how, what can you do if the other person just isn't willing to identify their own? Sometimes that's a it's a time issue, timing issue. Like the person is just not there yet, and the question is whether you're sticking through it. So there are a couple of different pieces we're now in spring. I always think about during winter we got plants that pop up all of a sudden. On our front, that all went along. It's just dead. There's nothing there, like you don't think anything's going on, and all of a sudden they burst forward. And that lets me know that during the winter things were happening underneath the ground, there was something getting ready to go. And so sometimes people feel stuck and it's just a matter of continuing long enough for it to finally get the momentum to burst forward. So that's an option, that's a possibility. There are times when the stuck is because you're changing your patterns in some ways, and it's not either not being seen or not being felt by the other person that, and they, so they continue on stuck in the same pattern. So that is a possibility that you're actually making changes. It's also possible that you're moving on the wrong things. There's a first order change versus second order change theory in psychology especially systems theory, psychology. So first order change. Let's say I walk in my house and it's cold in the house and I mess with a thermostat. Nothing changes. And so I put on a sweater. I haven't changed the environment, I haven't changed the system. I've put on a sweater and that will make me a little bit warmer, but let's say it's still too cold, so I put on another sweater. There's a, there's an end to that, right? You can't do anything other than you keep covering up. That's a first order change. I'm trying to deal with the system that's there. There are times when we do that second order change though, is when I go over and I get the thermostat fixed. So we reset the system and then we are back to a normal environment. So that's a first order versus second order. And a lot of times I see people like. Instead of an angry outburst, they decide they're not gonna do that anymore, but they're still angry. So they have decided not to raise their voice or not to stomp their feet or anything else, but they're still angry. They haven't addressed the underlying piece of that. So sometimes they're stuck because nothing has actually changed than the system. They're just trying to pretend differently. And that all happens in many relationships. Yeah. Yeah. Have you seen situations where one person starts making changes and it actually shifts the whole relationship even if the other person is closed to it at first? Yes. And it depends on how they do it. What I see, the mistake I watch people make is they decide to start going in the other direction fast, like chase down their spouse and make them, come back in. So back to Clementine beside me. I let her out in the backyard and I need her to come back to me and she doesn't want to I can make a mistake and chase after her. She loves that. Good analogy. He'll just keep on running, right? Yeah. And the faster I chase, the faster she runs, or I can invite her over with a treat. That is the difference between the chasing and the pacing. So there's a chaser that means the other person is a spacer. I'm, we're gonna maintain this distance and I've got to learn to be a pacer. How can I move a little slower, more imitational if I go out and I coax her over? That's a different approach. And so that's the mistake I see many people do when they decide to make a change. They go full bore towards the other person, and the other person's like sometimes don't even realize it, but they're like, I don't want that closeness. So we maintain the same distance or even increase it because you're coming at me too fast as opposed to inviting. And so my approach is about being invitational in the connection. So there's actually several parts to my approach. One is the connection, being invitational with that changing yourself, which basically means you recognize that you've gone stagnant and figuring out where you need to become more of yourself. That doesn't mean you gotta go to therapy or anything else, but changing where you need to show up differently. And then creating a new path to being that we connecting, changing, creating the connection though, if you're so the changing yourself, if you're finding yourself constantly anxious and therefore chasing connection, that's the, there's a piece to work on. But being invitational. One of the solutions I see people try all the time is date night. Date night does not work in a disconnected relationship. There's too much pressure. Yeah. And you suddenly you're going, okay, we're gonna do date night, Friday night, you're gonna get dressed up and we're gonna get a babysitter and we're gonna go to this nice place. And so you get through the first one and then the next time you're like, oh, we can find, that was awful. I don't wanna do that again. Yeah. No babysitter can't do that. Yeah. Let's just stay home. And so the date night problem though is the connection. There's not enough connection to allow that level of connection. As opposed to something like, Hey, I just heard about this new restaurant up the road that opened up. And they say they have really good sandwiches. I'm gonna try that tomorrow for lunch. Would you like to go with me? That's a whole different setup and the person can say, I'm not interested. But still, if you said, Hey, would you like to meet for a coffee? Even if I couldn't go, I'd be going that was nice to be thought of. That's there's a piece of connection embedded in that. Absolutely. And so at now, the, there are some ways of messing that up, like going, okay, I'm not going either. If they turn you down, right? That's the other is, then you get angry that, and pled around you didn't respond the way I wanted to. You didn't do what I wanted. And they're like, I, you asked me yes or no, and I said, no. Yeah, no. So then you can show that you're actually trying to do it in a kind of a deceitful way. And then if you go, you don't have this big relationship talk because again. The relationship can't hold that level of connection. You have a good time and you're building, you're putting in the deposits into that connection bank. And the more you build that, the more capable it is down the road. So there are lots of ways you can do that, but it's gotta be an invitational approach. So let me go back. We talked about the three levels of connection, and here we are talking about connection again. So people will often say, tell me exactly what to do. And my response is physical, emotional, spiritual, a little bit more than what you're doing now, a little bit more. And then add to that a little bit more. So you're building from there. Instead of going from here to here incrementally, just just incremental stuff. Just doing the trajectory just a little bit. Yeah. You don't probably have to do a huge sweeping change. It's more just like those little. Little moments, little things. And here's why. We humans are connecting creatures probably more than any other planet creature on the planet. We have three different levels as opposed to Clementine who has one level of connecting. And so we have these three different levels. So that tells us how connecting we are as creatures and we need that connection. So if we suddenly start feeling that in ways that aren't threatening, that's very appealing. And so you naturally move towards it. And that's why you don't wanna overplay the hand. The other person will begin to naturally move towards that because we want connection so badly. Yeah. So for the person listening right now, who wants to strengthen their relationship, what's like a one simple place they could start? You talk about, all these types of connection, but what's some practical. Actions they could take. So th this is where it gets a little tricky because I don't know where somebody is on those different levels of connection, right? But let's say that might, so let's say that physical connection, there's just very minimal to be able to maybe even a side hug when they come in the door or a pat on the back as they pass by. Light, things like that are small enough. The invitation I just suggested of going somewhere. I'm gonna go grab a cup of coffee, would you like to go with me? I'm gonna go grab a co a cup of coffee. Could I bring you one back? Is even some connection piece, right? Just showing kindness and consideration. So those small things matter. Spiritual connection, a lot of times people will tell me we haven't talked about that stuff for years. And so I use the example earlier about what about a book You've read a show you saw a movie. Those spiritual pieces are embedded around us. So to be able to say, Hey, I saw this really interesting show last night and I was thinking about how, this is why it was important to me. Just kinda sharing that is a spiritual connection. Yeah. You don't have to name, I've been thinking about my core values and this is, I want to diagram this for you. And it's not that, but it's, I was just watching, this show, this movie, read this book and this is what it meant to me is enough to open up that door a little bit. Yeah. I think that's true. What did I say? There were a couple things that you had said earlier that I was like, I wanna ask. Oh, you talked about being a, we and you talked about finances and that. Do you think do you think it's important that couples share. This is probably opening up a whole can of worms, but do you think it's important that couples share bank accounts and truly meld their finances together? Or do you think that a successful marriage can be built with each couple having separate bank accounts and stuff? There are some practical reasons. I've known professionals, particularly attorneys doctors in particular that are doing asset protection, and so they have a very specific reason why they need to keep things separate. What I see more often is people who are setting up very elaborate plans to somehow try to make things equitable or equal or fair or something else that are always trying to scramble around this formula. And so I'm less concerned about how people actually do the day-to-day stuff and more about how do they think about it. There are legitimate reasons that they might set it up. That makes sense. There are also not, there's some bad reasons too. I, so those premarital couples, I would often say, so tell me how are you gonna do your money and it would take higher level of math than I was capable of to watch how they were breaking down, how they were gonna divide out their finances. And it was never okay with both people. One person was always going, yeah, and so I would always point out to the person who it felt like they were getting the lesser and go, how does that feel to you? And they would often tell me, or I would track it out we make, we both make about the same kind of thing, so we're gonna split the bills. And I'm like, okay, let's, so let's say that a child comes into your family and one of you decides to stay home a little bit and that reduces your pay. What are you gonna do with that? Let's just pressure test this a little bit. And often they hadn't thought through it. So the mentality behind it is more what I'm interested in. Do we think this is our resource coming in? Can I have some money that I don't have to ask my wife about? Sure. That's not. That, but that's still in an agreement we might have with each other. We have more of an agreement that if something is a cer above a certain amount, we're gonna have a discussion about it just to make sure we're okay. If it's below that, we're good. And that still is stuff that we're gonna see, down the road anyway. We both have access to the accounts, so it's not so much how people do the day-to-day accounting as much as how they think about that as a resource. Yeah, I just thought it was interesting. I've had a, I have had a lot of friends who have been married a long time and maintain separate bank accounts. And interestingly, even though I am divorced three times in all three of my marriages, we put our bank accounts together and I like, as I mentioned in that podcast I am, I have been the main breadwinner most of the time too, and, I think that was a strength in our marriage, even though it ultimately ended in divorce. I would never have considered who? Oh, I paid for this and you paid for that because it's like, what? You're doing life together and it, it's different people have different responsibilities and, but it's interesting. I just I've always found it just an interesting thing to look at in money is a definite place where you can see whether people are thinking us or me versus you. Yeah. And even if it's me and you're creating the circumstances where it could easily become me versus you just with a slight disagreement. Yeah. Is there anything else? We have been, we've been chatting for a while now. Is there anything else that you really wanted to share or connect on this? We've covered some ground. Yeah, we did. We've talked about how to be a we or a team, and the importance still of bringing your best self to that. And that's, being, showing up and truly being present with what your values are. That's part of what leans those things together leans into the connection piece. So we've covered those three C's of connecting and changing and creating. We've talked about the dangers of the pause button and why that ends up eating away at a relationship and what three levels of connection look like. That's, there's a lot of action just in that. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I think it's very interesting and I'm so honored that you reached out to me and wanted to be on my podcast, and I hope that both of our audiences will benefit from this conversation. I think it's interesting that. Even coming to it from such, maybe on the surface, different directions. We both, I think, see eye to eye on a lot of things. So what if somebody, what, tell me, tell us more about your work now. I know you have your podcast. Are you actively coaching? Are you a therapist? What, tell me about how you, how people can work with you if they're interested. Yeah, I do coaching, I switched from therapy to coaching years ago. So I do coaching with people really around the world. And I have a team of coaches that I actually work with. Me too. But there are two different places people could be on this journey that would apply for me. So let's take the, your boat, your relationship, your boat is headed downstream, and in the distance. You hear the waterfall and you're like, oh gosh we've been stuck too long. That. That might be the time to do my Unpause app. And that's, that app is designed to help people break the habits of disconnection. And that's at unpauseyour marriage.com. Unpauseyourmarriage.com is the, that the app is designed to. The reason I like the app is it'll remind you like we're breaking habits here. And since life is just floating along, you need something to remind you. Like your morning exercise, it's got trainings in it, it's got a twice a a morning and an evening exercise. Really great. And that can help people to figure out how to move to an unpaused relationship. So unpauseyourmarriage.com. But people may be further along and they're hearing the noise. That's the waterfall that's coming and it's prominent and they want to see if they can save their marriage. And that's at savethemarriage.com. That's when you want to save your marriage at savethemarriage.com. Okay, great. So people can reach you at either of those two websites and I don't know, what else do you wanna leave us with? I wanna say that I, and I think I said this at the beginning, I just I do really believe in marriage. I think it's a beautiful, it's a beautiful thing to share your life with someone and to go through all the highs and lows and to grow through what you go through. So even after everything I still believe in love and I still believe in marriage. And I believe love is not, love is a verb. It's not just a thing. It's not just a feeling. How about you? What do you it is the actions we take. That's how we stay connected in a relationship, is by taking those actions. To use the term that's been shown in research to turn toward each other during events, during times during daily moments. And so when we turn towards each other, we're working on that connection. Yeah. That's beautiful. Thank you. You've shared a lot of valuable insight and I look forward to reading some of your books and learning more from you and maybe I'll come on your podcast sometime. See we can fit in. Thank you. All right. Thank you.