Marriage, Money & the Conversations Most Couples Avoid, with Lisa Zeiderman

In this episode of Piece of Work, host Danielle Tantone sits down with Lisa Zeiderman to explore the complex, emotional, and often misunderstood world of marriage and divorce.

A highly respected matrimonial attorney, Certified Divorce Financial Analyst, and Certified Financial Litigator, Lisa brings decades of experience handling high-stakes divorce cases involving complex finances, custody disputes, and pre- and post-nuptial agreements. Recognized by organizations like Crain’s New York Business and consistently named a Super Lawyer, Lisa is also a thought leader in the space—writing for Psychology Today, contributing to major publications like The New York Times and Forbes, and serving as Board Chair of Savvy Ladies, a nonprofit dedicated to helping women achieve financial independence.

In this candid conversation, Danielle and Lisa go far beyond the legal process to unpack the real-life dynamics of relationships. They discuss why financial literacy is essential in marriage, how financial abuse can quietly take hold through control and lack of access, and why prenuptial agreements are becoming less about “planning for divorce” and more about creating transparency and alignment from the start.

Lisa also shares insight into the emotional realities of divorce—from co-parenting and loss of control to the long-term truth that, when children are involved, your relationship with your ex doesn’t simply end. Drawing from both her professional expertise and personal experience, she offers a grounded, compassionate perspective on what it means to navigate separation while still building a healthy future.

With her holistic approach—often collaborating with financial experts, mental health professionals, and other specialists—Lisa emphasizes that divorce is never just a legal event. It’s a life transition that impacts every layer of a person’s world.

This episode is honest, insightful, and deeply human—perfect for anyone navigating marriage, divorce, or simply wanting to build more informed, empowered relationships.

👉 To learn more about Lisa, explore her articles, and access additional resources, visit her website: https://lisazeiderman.com/

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Transcript

Audio Only - All Participants 1:06

Welcome back to Piece of Work, the podcast. Today, I have a guest with me. Her name is Lisa Zeiderman, and she is a matrimonial attorney, i.e. Divorce attorney. I've never heard it called a matrimonial attorney, but she's based out of New York. And things work a little differently there, as I know from when I practiced real estate in New York. We, they even use attorneys for real estate transactions there. So anyway, I got connected with her and I thought it would be interesting to have her on. I spoke a couple weeks ago about my personal experiences with marriage and divorce and, how I was able to navigate it without having an attorney on either side. And I wanted to bring in a different perspective because my experience obviously is not even the norm, l- or not even probably 50%. And I thought it would be interesting to have someone with a little bit different experience and expertise to share with us some thoughts on marriage, divorce, law, family court, all the things. So welcome, Lisa. Thank you so much, Danielle. And I have to say, I really love the title of your podcast, A Piece of Work. Thank you. Well- It's the expression I use, so- I think I, it came to me naturally one day. I was, like, trying to explain to my daughter something about someone in her family. And I was like, as adults we don't really know. We're all just figuring this out. We're all a piece of work, but we're also a work in progress and we're a work of art too, all at the very same time." And I was like,"Oh my gosh, that's actually cool. That's actually like really deep. The wor- the word work means totally different things in each of those phrases and it's all true." So yeah, I think we are all a piece of work, but it was the title of my memoir, which I published about three, four years ago. And boy, I definitely was a piece of work. Am a piece of work. But yes, I think we all are. Yes, I agree with that. I do agree with that. Some people are more willing to admit it than others. And I think the best people are the ones that admit it and embrace it, but yet- Of course. are still trying to improve and be a little bit less of a piece of work. Absolutely. So tell me about how you got into this work and what you do and what you're passionate about and how you work with people. So lot of questions there, but I will start with how I got into this work. So I actually had come out of high school, went into the fashion business, and had decided that's what I was going to do. I was very entrepreneurial. I worked at the, that time for Macy's New York during the weekends as a store manager and in what was called the seller at that point. Nice. Macy's New York. And I also worked for a manufacturer who was one of the biggest manufacturers on Seventh Avenue and then opened up my own showroom. And then at some point got married, had my child adopted my child actually in 1992 and at some point decided to go forward with a divorce. And as I was in the middle of my divorce, I really found that, first of all, the work was very interesting. It was a lot of finance in the in the world of matrimonial. And I thought that was super interesting because I had a real knack for finance and I had been doing a lot of negotiating in the fashion business, working with retailers, both small and big manufacturer, manufacturers and retailers. And so I decided that at some point after my divorce was over, I was going to go back to college or, and get my degree and then to law school and my passion was going to be matrimonial law. And so when I graduated first thing out, I was working already for a matrimonial attorney and then for a firm and then started my own firm in 2013 and built it from four people to just about 47 people, I think, now. That, that's, that is how I got there. And then you asked what my passion is. And I guess my passion has to do with finance, but it also has to do with financial literacy. So I'm also the chair of a board, Savvy Ladies, which is a nationwide non-for-profit that has an incredible helpline where women can call into the helpline and they can download the app for savvy ladies on their phones and put in a question, a financial question and be actually matched with a financial professional who is interested in answering that financial question and they are finding that is less, less stressful for them as a result and find in terms of their physical and h- mental health that's an improvement. So that's my passion. And it fits very well into what I do which obviously is to deal with a lot of people going through divorce and people who sometimes don't have a good grasp on their financial health and wellness. Yeah, for sure. I think divorce can really come as a, can really rock women especially because, you build your life as a support system a lot of times, in the traditional kind of marriage and then you're, rocked when it falls apart. And then I think on the other end too, I think a lot of men that I've known feel very taken advantage of and very, like they worked really hard to make this money. So I think it's like, it can go both ways. And it's not just women or men. I've been the main breadwinner in most of my relationships, so it's not, I'm not trying to be too traditional in my roles, but it just, I think it's women especially just don't in general have a lot of financial literacy I've seen. I think that's right. I'm reading which I know a lot of people across the country are reading Belle Burden's book now, Strangers. Oh, I haven't read that one. Oh, and so it's very compelling. And and what's so compelling about it is how this really educated superwoman who actually was an attorney herself gave up a lot of the what would I say? The control of the finances in her life. And so when her husband left and I haven't finished the book, I'm just about done, but when her husband left, she realized how much control I think that she had given up. And so I think a lot of people do give up control to one of their spouses, whether it be male or female. I think you're right. Yeah. Women do it more often than men. And I think that also is one of the things that we talk about at Savvy Ladies is that when you're working with a financial advisor or more importantly, when a financial advisor is working with a couple, that they really need to be paying attention to both parties in the couple. Yeah. And sometimes what happens, I think, is women don't attend the meetings or are put off in some way or it's, I'll, they have, may have a spouse who says,"Don't worry about it. I'll take I'll take this meeting and I'll fill you in. And all of a sudden, little by little, they are losing control. And I think it happens to men too. I was gonna say I think often one partner who may, might have less experience coming into the marriage is just intimidated by the whole thing. And they're like,"Oh, thank God somebody else is gonna take over this and I don't have to worry about it because I have you. And I think that's wonderful. It, we all have our gifts and it is normal in a marriage to have one person handle more of one thing and one hand person handle more of another thing. But I think it's so important to have an understanding of what's happening and where it's going and w- what it all means and how interest works and how, just all of it. Yes. And I think also asking the questions when you don't understand it. So I think that sometimes people feel shame in terms of not understanding certain things and that is the time to ask the question so that you're not giving up your role in terms of managing your finances, but instead you're asking the important questions, which is fine to do. Very cool. Yeah, I agree. So do you work with people, you work with people at the beginning of their marriages or before their marriages too for doing prenuptials and things like that. Can you tell us a little bit about that? How, if somebody's wanting to set up a, in a, in the right way from the beginning let's think positive before we talk about the ending part. So I love that because I think that prenuptial agreements, we do so many prenuptial agreements now. Sometimes we also do postnuptial agreements. If people have, for whatever reason, either run out of time where they didn't think about it or whatever the reason was that they didn't sign them, they can still sign in New York. And I'm not sure about the law in your state because postnuptial agreements are not valid in every state, but in New York, certainly prenuptial agreements and postnuptial agreements are valid and we are seeing more and more prenuptial agreements being drafted, particularly I think because a lot of people don't want to be their parents' divorce. And so I think that there's a lot- They may go badly and they're not, they don't wanna repeat that. They don't. They've either been part of, as children growing up, they've been part of perhaps a contentious divorce and they remember it vividly and it was part of their lives and it may have gone on for years. And we hear so many times that people coming to us who say,"I wanna deal with this straight on. I wanna be very transparent about my finances. This is what I really want out of this prenup. I've discussed this with my my fiance and we're on board." And of course that's the best prenup, right? The one where everybody is on board and ha- and people have discussed the terms. And more and more, I'm saying to people, when they come to me,"Have you discussed the terms of the prenuptial agreement, the terms that you are thinking about because this is a good conversation to have with your fiance early on- so that everybody comes to the same terms and we can literally just draft what you guys agree on. Yeah. Okay. Now, do you think that everyone needs a prenup or do you think that i- is that Why? Tell me I, you nodded your head for those who are just listening and maybe not watching the video, she nodded her head, yes. So I do- And surprising to me, it never would occur to me to have a prenup. More and more, I would say the answer is yes. I said this many years ago, but I think it's proven itself out now. I was on it might've been like 10 years ago that I remember doing a podcast of some sort, and I was asked this question and I said,"Yes, absolutely." And I think more and more I see that it is so much i- it's so important to do it and so many reasons, not just for the prenup itself, but also for the discussion points, right? All of a sudden you are having these really important discussions with this person that you're gonna be spending the rest of your life with, hopefully. You're discussing finances, which is a very big part of marriage, and you're also discussing the idea of having children and who's going to perhaps, be taking care of those children, whether you both wanna be dual career parents, whether there's an expectation that one of you is going to be a stay-at-home parent. And and that relates to finances, right? If you are gonna be a stay-at-home parent, how can you protect yourself in a prenuptial agreement so that if you're out of the workforce for a significant amount of time, that you don't lose the momentum that your other, the other spouse is building in the workforce because you may never make that momentum up. And so how are you going to be compensated for that? I- issues about inheritance, about, how you're spending, right? What is your thougt process, spending or saving? These are all great- Absolutely. conversations to have. And the fact is that I think most people don't have these conversations unless they are really sitting down- Struggling. to talk about a prenuptial agreement. So do I think everybody should have one? Yeah, I do think everyone should have them. I also think that they can be later changed in a postnuptial agreement or some sort of a modification. And again, this is state sensitive, so I'm speaking for New York, but in many states, I think that's the case. And you always have that choice, frankly of going back and renegotiating it. And if you can't renegotiate it, then perhaps there's a problem a bigger problem in the marriage at that point. But I do have people who come back to me and they have renegotiated or they've bought certain property or they thought about it or whatever it is. So I think it's and particularly now. I love it. It's almost like a prenuptial agreement as like a governing document for the marriage. It's not necessarily just in case we get divorced. It's almost like planning your life ahead of time. What's the word? If you have a company and you have a, like a, your, your- Your mission statement? Yeah, like your mission statement, your your goals, your dreams. And I hadn't thought about it that way because I think you're so right that most people don't have those discussions until they're faced with a difficult situation. And a lot of times those end up leading to divorce because they realize they're on totally different pages on some basic things. One partner thought they were gonna be a stay-at-home parent and the other was like, no, I was expecting you were gonna make at least$5,000 a month. Like, why would I expect any less than that? And so I think that this is actually something I had never considered, but that's, it could be People think of a prenup as a just in case of divorce, but maybe it's actually a great idea to prevent divorce because you are, you re- you have these conversations early on, you either realize you're not on the same page and maybe you shouldn't go forward with the marriage or you can compromise and get on the same page before and put it in writing and that's pretty powerful. And I think that's 100% true. A lot of people have come to me over the years for divorces because they weren't on the same page, right? Either someone stayed home with the kids too long from the other spouse's point of view, right? There was like some sort of a commitment, okay, yes, you'll stay home for a year or two or whatever, and then the next child came and then all of a sudden the staying home became the way of life. And that really, I think, created friction in certain marriages that I've seen. I've seen that. On the other hand there might have been an expectation to stay home and the fact is that now you're out of the workforce and everybody forgot that was going to be what we all agreed on. And maybe they didn't so much forget as they conveniently overlook it now, but bottom line is it's so important to have these discussions beforehand. And, also this whole idea of, if you're starting a business, for example, in your, during your marriage, what And you don't know if you're gonna do that, right? There's so many startup businesses now a days and so much, so many technological developments with apps and all sorts of things that could really hit for people, right? Yeah. And so the issue is how are you going to deal with the intellectual property? How are you going to deal with the startup business? How are you going to deal with the fact that, perhaps you are going to have to pay out your spouse if you start this company and it really blows up in a good way. And so these are all questions. And again, hopes, dreams, aspirations, they're all part of the conversation for prenuptial agreements. Yeah, that's very cool. Yeah. I remember feeling slightly grateful that I really didn't have any assets, so to speak, in, in my most recent divorce. It was like,"Yeah, you know what? I can be willing to pay him such and such money a month for a little while because we really don't have anything to speak of, but that said, I hope to grow those assets in the future so that's not the case. But yeah that's interesting. Very interesting conversations. What else? Let's see. Tell me if there's something that you would like to talk about- I think- Reading your Bible, your bio here. So we could certainly talk about financial abuse because it's very prevalent. Maybe not just like- Tell us what you need. De- define it and like tell us for somebody who's listening who might not have really heard of financial abuse, let us know what that entails and what that could look like. So we see more and more financial abuse, actually. And I think that financial abuse is about control. I think that's the first and foremost thing that people have to recognize. And it's often, unfortunately, a gateway for other forms of domestic violence, such as emotional abuse and physical abuse, because when you no longer, for example, have the passwords to the accounts or your credit card has been cut off or the limit lower to such a point when you can't actually even buy the most basic necessities you can't pay for childcare so that you can go out to work and you're now in this position of not being able to move around in the world because you no longer have access to money. That is abusive if someone is doing that to you. Absolutely. And, we see that a lot. We see credit cards cut off, we see accounts closed, we see monies being transferred. Sometimes it's, people who don't have a lot of money, they just, they're cut off completely. Sometimes their lifestyle is just changed in a moment or over time where they're not noticing it. And so it decreases slowly to the point where they're really don't have access to much. And so I think that a lot of people don't recognize emotional abuse, but sorry emotion they recognize the emotional- You know that too, right? Exactly. But they don't necessarily recognize the financial abuse. And so I think that is definitely an issue that we are seeing more and more of. And so when people are asking to understand what their finances are and they're getting no answers, I think that's a time that people need to sit down and think about why they're getting no answers and how they're gonna deal with that particular issue. Very cool. So I wanna transition a little bit. I'm reading in your bio that you have a blog on psychology today called Legal Matters: Understanding Mental Health issues as they apply to divorce and child custody. Let's talk a little bit about that. That's very fascinating to me. So we actually I do a lot of child custody cases, complex custody cases. In many of those cases, or certainly in some of those cases, there are mental health issues. It's not that unusual for there to be some mental health issues. That doesn't mean, by the way, that somebody can't have custody if they, if there is mental health issues. I think that people are sometimes look at this as if you have a mental health issue, you can't have custody of your child. And I, I don't think that's the case. I think that if you have a mental health issue and you are following the doctor's instructions and monitoring your mental health issues correctly, and when I say correctly, following the professionals in your life, going to the doctor's appointments, if necessary, taking the medications, et cetera, you can have a full and fabulous parenting life, right? And absolutely. And we often see this, and we often see sometimes even the person who has mental health issues sometimes is the primary caretaker of the children. Yeah. And then we see it, of course, used against that person or attempts to use that, those mental health issues atte- against that person in court even though it's been fine, right? I, they, the other person has gone to work and left the person and all of that. So I decided to write in psychology today about divorce and these different mental health issues and how they might affect. And also the roles of therapists and some of the issues that therapists face in their roles when a divorce occurs. So for example, one of my columns which I think was very popular was about whether therapists could actually produce their file in court when they're subpoenaed, what do they do? Because they may have information about the patient that they have. And in a custody case, very often, you put your mental health and your physical health at issue that is a custody case. And so the things that you thought was super private that you were saying to your therapist may not be so much, so private after all. Scary, actually. It is. It's scary and you need to be thoughtful of it. And we don't want to discourage people from going to therapy, but I think that therapists need to also be aware that their notes can be subpoenaed now. There's a difference, I will say also between psychotherapy notes and just your notes in general and I've written about this issue as well, psychotherapy notes in New York we've just had several cases that show that those are not subpoenaable except under special circumstances. But those are the kinds of things that we write about. In psychology today, we also write about the resist and refuse of children sometimes also known commonly as parental alienation. You know- I've heard a lot about that recently. We see a lot of, manipulation of children, which is unfortunate because I think people have to remember, particularly in custody cases, that it's very important to foster a relationship with the other parent. Oh, I so agree. to to the, even the Belle Burden book that I'm reading. And by the way, Gwyneth Paltrow is gonna be starring the role of Belle Burden. So this is not- Oh, wow. This is happening. But, after there's one very striking moment in the book where the father comes home to tell the children that he's leaving and that he's divorcing the mother. And after he sits them down and he tells them that he asks Belle if she would make him a sandwich. And it's and she's thinking to herself,"Make him a sandwich. Like he's just told the kids he's leaving us, right?" And he was leaving us because he said according to the book that he did not want custody of the children. And he literally packs his stuff up and he leaves. They're in the middle of a pandemic this huge pandemic that we had and he's leaving the vineyard at that point to And so bottom line is that she goes out into the kitchen and she decides that she wasn't gonna make a scene in front of the children. She was gonna do the very best thing for her children and she was gonna just make the sandwich. And then there's a part where, should I make him a lousy sandwich? Should I make him a great sandwich best sandwich she's ever had kind of moment, right? But the bottom line is that she put her children first. And I think that we talk about this a lot in my articles in psychology today in my column because it is so important to foster relationship with the other parent and courts look at that in the determination of custody. I totally agree. I think this I hadn't even heard of parental alienation. A friend of mine on Facebook has been, like, posting things about this because he's experienced it so sadly. And so I'm like,"That's a thing?" That is so awful. I can't imagine that. The man would have to be a monster for me to try to keep his children away from him and to not encourage him to be involved in their life. I just But it's, it happens, I think. And I think Yeah, what do you think causes that and what do you think, how do you think we can combat that or and how do you, what do you think is the solution? So I think that there's several things that cause it. There is there is the monetary part of it, right? Which is that in, and this is a New York thing, but I think it's probably similar in some states, which is that if you have fifty fifty custody, that the person who earns the most money will actually pay child support to the other person. Yeah. And there is that really big difference in that fifty fifty. So if you're at a 14 nights, if you're a six instead of seven, that's a big difference. And and then there can be a deviation for the amount of child support if you have fifty fifty. And then all of, also, I think there is the issue that I think sometimes people just don't wanna give up the the job I'm gonna say that they've had. I've had i've said it over and over again over the years that I miss out on 50% of my kids' lives. I literally have missed 50% of their lives- Yes. because they, my oldest two were pretty young the first time when I got divorced. And it's really sad. Like it, as much as it's like it has its bonuses, you get some time to yourself and you get to e- experience things it's really lonely and it's really, you really miss out on just those little moments, like at home, not They're big moments and little moments. And yeah, I absolutely agree that it's hard. And it's hard to don't have control. That's one of the things is while you're married to somebody, you have some element of control not that we're trying to manipulate each other, but you have, a relationship that you're keeping together. And so you see your kids all the time and you have some control over that. And then when you divorce someone, you give up. If they have, if you have fifty fifty custody, when they're in the other home, you can try to agree on certain things and to agree on what type of rules and things like that. And thankfully, in my case, we've been able to be on the same page about most things, almost everything, but you give up that control. The other spouse could say,"No, sorry, my house, we do this. And you don't get to choose and you don't really have your swaying powers of all the things that, that you do when you're married to somebody. I think that's 100% true. I think that it is a loss of control. It, it's also why we see, I think, so much gray divorce now too and that's- Wait, what's that? I've never heard of that term. What's a gray divorce? So gray divorce is what's happening now, people in their 60s, 70s- Oh, gray as in hair color. I get it. Yes, right? Who are getting divorced and we see more and more of this. And I think it's because and I hear this so many times, right? People are, don't wanna miss that 50% that you were talking about- They stayed together for the kids and- And for themselves, right? It's not just for the kids, but it's also that they didn't want to not see their children- 30% of the time, 40% of the time, 50% of the time. They want to be there every night to see their kids and every morning to wake up. And so they, many people stay in these really I would say awful marriages, okay? Yeah. Yeah. Because they do want to do that. I'm not really sure, and I don't think I actually agree that was the best result, even for the kids, because I think the kids just got to see a really bad marriage while growing up. Sure. But those are the people coming to me for the prenups, right? Yeah. And but- But I think another thi- another reason to stay together and this is coming from someone who chose to divorce three times. Another reason to stay together is because when you marry somebody there's a, there's not only your nuclear family, the kid, you and your hu- your husband or wife and the kids, but there's the whole extended family. And I think that divorce O- one of the things that I didn't quite comprehend is that the divorce breaks up the entire family, and it rocks the entire family, and you may not wanna give up that extended family that you're part of too. I in my parent, my parents ended up getting divorced when I was an adult already. I was a young adult right out of college. It was actually surprisingly hard on me when that happened. But thankfully, my parents maintained a friendship. It was a little bit hard at first because there was, there's always a little bit of contention and hard feelings, but ultimately, they ended up being still and still are best, not best friends, but still family. That's, it's hard to explain. They stayed like my grandmother, my dad's mom till the day she died, considered my mom still her daughter, and not just her daughter-in-law, her daughter. And it was like, because my dad was an only child and she went So she married into this family. They were married 24 years and then separated and then divorced. And it, that's what, that's the example that I grew up or that I grew up knowing that divorce didn't have to break up the entire family, but when I divorced my ex- husband, it wasn't like that with his family and it was like, it rocked me way more way more than I thought it would. I lost my niece and my nephew and I just didn't expect that because, our situation was totally different and they had their reasons and, we're all a piece of work and work in progress and a work of art. But it was disarming. It was jolting to me because I didn't have, I didn't expect that. I didn't know that was the norm and, but that is the norm. So you, I think that's another reason that people might stay together is to avoid that, to, to keep the family together. And by the time their parents pass away and there's no longer so much at stake to, so much to lose, everyone's an adult, the kids are a grown up, I can understand that. I think that's right. I think that you're correct in terms of the fact that most people who get divorced do end up giving up that other relationship with their spouse's family that, that seems to deteriorate usually. On the other hand and right, I'm a divorce attorney, so I see so much. I just, I have a hard time thinking that people are in it for reasons other than being, totally in love, frankly- Yeah. with the person that they wanna be with because there's so many great relationships out there and so many opportunities to have a great relationship that I guess I just and maybe because I'm now married for the second time- 28 years. Okay. Awesome. Congratulations. That's no small feat, as we know. And fabulous marriage and extremely happy. And I can't imagine that I wouldn't have done that, right? That I wouldn't have actually had that opportunity. And and I feel like my daughter, who's like now 33 and she has her own life, she's happily married I think that she learned from- Absolutely. I totally agree. frankly. I- And you can stay too long. I, after, when I looked back, my, my most recent divorce and I looked back and I said,"You know what? I do love you. And I still love him. He's a, he's still part of my family. Thankfully, we've been able to maintain our friendship and, co-parent really well with our daughter. But I said,"I cannot have the next 10..." Like in fact, we had been together 10 years. I was like I cannot have the next 10 years of my life look like these last 10 years. We just fought all the time. We couldn't get to, we couldn't make it work. We tried so hard." And I said, I only have one life to live and it's mine and I can't just stay..." I was hurting myself and ultimately I think I actually hurt my kids by staying too long and I didn't mean to. I, it's hard. You make a marriage, you make a promise when you get married to somebody and I didn't wanna break that promise. I'd already broken that promise twice. I really was determined to make it work. But finally, I'm like,"You know what? Yeah, this is not, this is my life and I can't live it for everybody else." I have to do what's best for me, but also for my kids and, I think that there is an example, and I do think that children who grow up in houses that are unhappy, so many times we I represent children sometimes in, in divorce also as an attorney for children. I don't know if you have that in Arizona, but we- I know. And if there is a contested custody case, then an attorney will be appointed to advocate for what the children want. And if the children are very young or if they have special needs, perhaps substitute their judgment for what I think is in the children's best interest. And but very often what is very interesting to me is that the parents think that their children don't know that they're getting divorced. And they come to me and they'll tell me that they actually knew for a very long time that their parents were gonna get divorced, that this was not a surprise. Sometimes they'll say to their parents,"You finally are doing it, right? Yeah. They're very intuitive. And they're- They're, they live in the home. They feel the energy. They know. Yeah. So I think that people think that they are doing their kids sometimes a favor. I'm not really sure that it's a favor- Yeah. Or that it's really in the kids' best interest, but that's my feeling, right? Yeah, I agree. So you're, I'm reading more in your bio. It says that your approach to matrimonial and family law often includes when necessary enlisting an interdisciplinary team, including mental health professionals, financial advisors, career counselors, and real estate advisors. This enables her to create a holistic approach for clients and their families going through a divorce that doesn't begin and end with negotiating the settlement agreement. I love that. So how do you, how does that work in practical? So it really does take a village. A divorce often takes a village. And there is so many components. Forensic accountants in cases that are complex, attorneys should not be just handling that on their own. There might be valuations of businesses or valuations of professional practices, law practices, medical practices, et cetera. Those have to be dealt with an accounting firm one that actually specializes in the area of matrimonial law. And we usually, there's about 10 of them that probably are utilized most in, in the New York area. We also work with with vocational analysts who, So for example, if someone is out of the workforce it may be that the court will want to know how much could this person earn when this person returns to the workforce for purposes of support, both child support and alimony, spousal support, and and also for for, the spouse who is paying the support may want to argue that they should be paying less support because this person could be working at a higher amount or at all, right? And so that's another team. And then real estate appraisers, real estate advisors selling the property, stagers to sell the property mental health sometimes in the court, mental health forensics are appointed to evaluate the family. And then sometimes we end up getting our own experts to help us interpret those those reports and, or help us prepare testimony and questions for the witnesses. So all of this it, it really does take a team of people sometimes to to go from A to Z in a divorce. And we are open to and have the ability to contact these people and make sure that we build our team out. That's really cool. I shared with you before we hopped on that my former career was in real estate and I actually Even though I grew up in Arizona and my dad was in real estate here and I grew up going to open houses and things with him, I lived in New York City for a short couple of years between 1999 and 2001, and I got into real estate, got my real estate license there. I worked for a couple big companies, including Barbara Corcoran's company that now is- Oh, wow. It was only two years and I was a young little thing trying to make my way in New York City. But it was so fun and different to, to experience real estate in New York with, even a real estate transaction, there's an a- attorney for both sides and it's not done like that everywhere. Here in Arizona, we have a template type of contract that, as realtors, we almost are able to practice law, so to speak, for most transactions. We do have real estate attorneys that come into play when there's something complex, but most of our transactions, we don't have co-ops and not even a lot of condos. It's mostly single family homes. And it's just a very different thing than, especially New York City real estate. So I have a I feel like I have a, an inkling of what you're the landscape that you're working within and how- it can be. Yes. We're doing, we're completing a deal now and we have had on that deal real estate appraisers. We've had forensic accounting firms. We have dealt with real estate brokers, obviously. We've also dealing with tax attorneys because there are very specific tax issues in the case. And I think that what's so important is that you know how to spot those particular issues. There could be issues of deferred compensation that are in a particular case, restricted stock units, stock options, how they vest and when they vest and what portion of it is marital property and what portion of it is not proving separate property in New York as do many of the states, except for community property states, they, We're a community property stateist. So makes it simpler. Yeah. Okay, makes it sense. Simpler and more and difficult, but- yeah. So in New York, it's equitable distribution, not equal distribution. Interesting. And there are often, for business interests, for example, it's not usually a fifty fifty value of the business for the non-titled spouse. And so that's also a big part of this, depositions, discovery, all of these things. And so divorce can be complicated and you need to have somebody who is good and who can take you through it. Yeah. Definitely more complicated than my personal experiences for sure. So I love bringing you on to talk about this. One of the other things I saw in your bio that caught my attention was talking about mental health issues like narcissism and borderline personality. I think, first of all, narcissism beyond that, I'm a nurse as well, so I have the medical background and I know that, narcissistic personality disorder is an actual disorder, but I, every other person seems to be a- accused of being a narcissist. Talk to me a little bit about that and what that means on all the different levels. So look, first of all, as you probably know you could have a narcissistic personality disorder, but you could also not have a narcissistic personality disorder and just have traits or features of that personality disorder, right? Exactly. And so you wouldn't actually meet the criteria for the actual disorder. That being said we often hear that word when people come in,"My spouse is a narcissist." Almost every divorce probably has one of them as a narcissist or both. Yes. Okay. And this very grandiose controlling very, usually somebody who is dishonest, Yeah. infidelity may play a part in that particular issue. But this idea that, I'm bigger than life and and everybody's gonna do- Self-centered kind of a, like just- No, empathy. Yeah. A lack of empathy, right? Very important. I often think about that movie. Did you ever see the movie The Undoing? So- Not. Very interesting movie. And the wife is actually in the movie, a therapist, a psychologist and actually diagnoses her husband on the witness stand, right? Wow. With having a narcissistic personality disorder and this lack of empathy for anyone other than and not caring about anyone other than yourself. And I think the thing about the fear of being married to a narcissist is that I think people often come in and they're very worried that this person will charm everybody in sight. Absolutely. They do that. That's the big That's the biggest fear. And to remember, I think, is that they're, the attorney that they are working with who should be on their team is likely not gonna be charmed by this person. They're gonna be smart enough not to be charmed by this person. And the court has probably seen it all, and they're not gonna find anything so charming either, likely. So I think that they have had this experience of dealing with this narcissist, but that does not mean that your attorney is gonna have the same experience of dealing with the narcissist that you have had. And that's why you need the attorney- Yeah. because they're coming in, in a much more Oh, yeah. They don't have the emotions at stake. They're not gonna be not only not charmed, but not riled up, not not anything just more even keel. They're able to face this as a set of facts and not their life and not their emotions in their heart, exactly. But we also often do see people with this personality disorder who have lied on tax returns, lied about spending, lied about, the concealing of credit cards infidelity. So it's not uncommon. Yeah. Very interesting. So I know you've been divorced. Was your divorce a contentious divorce or more of a It was pretty contentious, I would say. My ex- husband was an attorney and so I was not at the time. It was pretty contentious. But, I will say this, I'm gonna This is probably the piece of advice for everybody, is that last year, or actually in January of, I guess this year, actually I went to see my grandson for his party. I was at his, he's one and he was just one years old. Aw, that's awesome. And my daughter lives in California, and we went to his first birthday party, and there was my ex- husband and my now husband, and old friends and new friends and all of that. And, you're gonna have to meet this person again in your life, so you need to think about that. And we, luckily we we both rose to the occasion- Awesome. were kind to each other, during that day and made sure that it was a happy day for my daughter and my son-in-law, and of course, my grandson. And but the I think that it's really important for people to realize that it's not like one and done, particularly if you have children, and so you need to consider what those days are gonna be like later- Sure. when you have the the weddings and- Absolutely. and the grandchildren born and all of those important events that you're both going to end up wanting to attend. We had my daughter's wedding at my home, and my ex- husband was here with his family, and it was a lovely day, right? And, That's so beautiful. I think that's the key. And that's the thing I've always tried to share with people is this person is gonna be in your life, whether you like it or not, you're not gonna, unless you're gonna, or you're gonna make it so that your kids can't have you both at their wedding or their graduation And they won't put up with that. I mean- No. They, your kids don't. They'll end up being the one shut out if you do that. Exactly. Exactly. So you have to figure it out, right? Because they're not gonna have two separate parties for their child. Okay? No. And how sad about it? Might have done it for yours, right? Yeah. But they're not gonna do that for theirs. And so I think that it's really important to remember that you are going to have to deal with this person later. And being at least honest and dealing with this person without, the contentiousness is always the best thing to do. That doesn't mean that you have to give up, the things that actually- No. You should receive in your divorce, right? Yeah. That doesn't mean you have to let them walk all over you or have to, have to- not be assertive and not get, you know- Exactly. make it fair, but- Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. But I think that's the key to the whole thing. And so I think that's a very important lesson. And until you've gone through the whole stage, the whole stage of all of this, then I don't think people realize that's where they're gonna come to at the end. They're all coming- Absolutely. place, right? The grandchild's birthday party. Yeah. It's hard for younger people to even imagine that there's gonna be a time when you're gonna be, like, so grateful that you can be side by side with this person that you first loved and then hated and then maybe love in some different way again. So- or at least just, are gonna tolerate each other, exactly for the sake of your kid and your grandchildren and all of that. So I, I think that's a really important lesson, and I think people need to just think about that. And as I said, it doesn't mean don't be assertive. It doesn't mean don't receive what you're supposed to receive. It doesn't mean don't dig for the assets or do the best thing that for your children in terms of custody, but it does mean that you should approach it thinking about this also. Absolutely. I love that. Yeah, we've talked about a lot of stuff and I think- Yeah. it's interesting that even though, I've been divorced three times and have not used an attorney in any of my divorces and I've really advocated that a lot of times you may not need that. You're gonna spend thousands of dollars for the attorneys to fight and really, if you guys could just agree on things and maybe have an attorney draft the documents for you or just help you make sure you're not forgetting things or a mediator of sorts. So I think it's fine if everybody is on a fairly equal footing to do that, right? I think the problem becomes when you're not on that equal footing and that somebody is taken advantage of. And that's why I'm not always a big fan of people just entering into mediation. I do find that mediation is also sometimes a road for manipulation and particularly if there is a spouse that has more experience, one of them might be an attorney or an accountant or just have more expertise in the area or be the person who understands the finances much better in the marriage. Yeah. That may not be a good recipe for mediation because the idea of mediation is that you're not gonna have somebody advocating for you in the room. Yeah. And I think that, that is I think problematic for people who cannot advocate for themselves in a strong and strategic way. Yeah. And so I just, I caution people about that. We do a lot of mediations now, actually where both sides have attorneys and we have retired judges who have come off the bench, but who are doing this and who are very experienced and who know the law. And those mediations are good mediations because, you're represented, you have an advocate, you have a judge who's giving you the time if you can do that. It's a fabulous way to do it, but you still need to do the discovery and the hard work and the due diligence beforehand. That makes sense. That's an interesting concept. Yeah. I think a judge, a retired judge would have just so much expertise and just the vision to see, just the understanding, judgment of character and being able to see the situation- Exactly. so clearly with very you know, right from the start. Exactly. Exactly. This is beautiful. I'm so glad to meet you. You look like a very bright soul. I wanna come visit you in New York. I love New York City. Without a doubt. Yeah. I would love you to come visit us in New York. I might take you up on that. I'm one of those people I love to travel and I love connecting with people where I go. So thank you for being here on my podcast and maybe we'll do this again sometime. Would love to. And thank you for having me- and if you enjoyed this podcast, please follow like the show, write a review. It means so much, and that helps other people find this work. Thank you.